Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How novel features evolve #2
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 140 of 402 (671912)
08-31-2012 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by zi ko
08-31-2012 11:06 AM


Re: DNA sequences and Phenotype selection
Hi Zi Ko,
There has never been any doubt in anyone's mind that both the environment and stress (which need not be referenced separately since it is actually induced by the environment) can cause mutations, but these mutations are random with respect to fitness.
zi ko writes:
In that case we would have a serious evidence or not of guided mutations.
Not.
What has this to do with how novel features evolve?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by zi ko, posted 08-31-2012 11:06 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by zi ko, posted 09-03-2012 10:19 AM Percy has replied
 Message 164 by zi ko, posted 09-05-2012 9:16 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 141 of 402 (671913)
08-31-2012 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by New Cat's Eye
08-31-2012 11:23 AM


Re: DNA sequences and Phenotype selection
Catholic Scientist writes:
So environment causes gene mutations!
Sure, but it really doesn't have any impact on the evolution of species.
I'm guessing you really meant to something about guided evolution since any mutation, regardless of ultimate cause, can have an impact on evolution.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-31-2012 11:23 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-31-2012 11:39 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 143 of 402 (671917)
08-31-2012 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by New Cat's Eye
08-31-2012 11:39 AM


Re: DNA sequences and Phenotype selection
Catholic Scientist writes:
Your right. What I meant was that environment caused mutations aren't really that important when we're considering the evolution of speices. Sure, they aren't non-existant, but do they really matter? Meh, not so much. They don't really (read: an appreciable amount) affect evolution.
You may be unduly minimizing the impact of environmentally caused mutations on evolution. Environmental stress can increase mutation rates. A population under environmental stress and possibly facing eventual extinction has a better chance of evolving it's way out of its predicament if it has a higher mutation rate. I think the current understanding is that environmentally caused mutations can matter a great deal.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-31-2012 11:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-31-2012 12:30 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 149 by zi ko, posted 09-03-2012 11:09 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 148 of 402 (672108)
09-03-2012 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by zi ko
09-03-2012 10:19 AM


Re: Re:meaningless controvercy
zi ko writes:
If cells are directing repairing mechanisms only to some specific DNA damage and not all, then there is surely a matter of guided evolution.
If somewhere out there something or someone is making decisions about which DNA damage to repair then that would be guided evolution, but there's no evidence of any conscious decision making. What we observe is only cellular repair mechanisms at work. Cellular copying mechanisms are not perfect, and neither are cellular repair mechanisms. There is nothing to indicate that copying errors or lacks in repair mechanisms are the result of conscious decisions.
Again, what has this to do with how novel features evolve? You appear to be trying to turn this thread into a discussion of your favorite topic. Unless you have evidence for guided evolution causing novel features I think you're off topic.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by zi ko, posted 09-03-2012 10:19 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 151 of 402 (672117)
09-03-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by zi ko
09-03-2012 11:09 AM


Re: Meaningless controvercy.
Zi Ko, if you're not going to discuss the topic, why are you posting here?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by zi ko, posted 09-03-2012 11:09 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by zi ko, posted 09-04-2012 2:02 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 154 of 402 (672146)
09-04-2012 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by zi ko
09-04-2012 2:02 AM


Re: choosing the propper opponent?
Hi Zi Ko,
Now you're being ridiculous in addition to already being obvious. Your favorite topic is guided evolution, and even though this thread is about novel features you're trying to discuss guided evolution, just as you've done in other threads. Unless you are planning to argue for guided evolution causing novel features you are off topic.
I'm not moderating this thread. I'm just asking you to stop before reporting this over at Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by zi ko, posted 09-04-2012 2:02 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 159 of 402 (672166)
09-04-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by foreveryoung
09-04-2012 10:44 AM


Re: DNA sequences and Phenotype selection
foreveryoung writes:
What if we are wrong about what true evidence should look like?
What if creationists are pathologically incapable of posting on-topic? Or is it a skill you worked on? A strategy you're purposefully employing? An odd mental quirk? Maybe we could discuss this question too in every thread, along with guided evolution and philosophical questions about the nature of evidence. Why have forums and threads, anyway? Why not just go to a single thread with a few hundred thousand messages?
How did you guys become so amazingly consistent at posting off-topic anyway. How is it that you are able somehow or other to look at a thread title and an introductory post and the following discussion, and then post about something completely different?
Please take questions about the nature of evidence to a thread in the Is It Science? forum, or propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics.
Sheesh!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by foreveryoung, posted 09-04-2012 10:44 AM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by zi ko, posted 09-05-2012 9:53 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 165 of 402 (672261)
09-05-2012 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by zi ko
09-05-2012 9:16 AM


Re: DNA sequences and Phenotype selection
zi ko writes:
Can you clarify please if about similar environmental changes cause about similar or not mutations on other members of the species?
Can you clarify please how this relates to the topic or even makes grammatical sense?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by zi ko, posted 09-05-2012 9:16 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 171 of 402 (672320)
09-06-2012 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Taq
09-06-2012 11:23 AM


Re: Topic warning
Taq writes:
So I would say that the random nature of mutations is strongly on topic.
If guided mutations can lead to novelty then wouldn't they also be on topic?
It seemed like Zi Ko was trying to co-opt yet another thread to discuss his own favorite ideas, but if he can introduce some evidence for guided mutations and describe how they lead to novelty then it seems like it would be a welcome addition to this thread.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Taq, posted 09-06-2012 11:23 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Taq, posted 09-06-2012 3:40 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 173 by zi ko, posted 09-07-2012 12:34 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 174 of 402 (672347)
09-07-2012 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by zi ko
09-07-2012 12:34 AM


Re: Topic warning
What part of "if he can introduce some evidence for guided mutations and describe how they lead to novelty then it seems like it would be a welcome addition to this thread" didn't you understand?
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Remove extraneous space.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by zi ko, posted 09-07-2012 12:34 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 178 of 402 (672443)
09-08-2012 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by zi ko
09-08-2012 9:31 AM


Re: Topic warning
Is there any chance you'll begin addressing the topic anytime soon?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by zi ko, posted 09-08-2012 9:31 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 180 of 402 (672563)
09-09-2012 1:24 PM


About the Topic
Hey, guys, if I'm just not grasping how Zi Ko is on-topic then please just briefly explain. I'm not that dumb, it shouldn't take more than a few sentences. But if he really is off-topic then could we please stop helping him be off-topic?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2012 1:42 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 182 of 402 (672567)
09-09-2012 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by RAZD
09-09-2012 1:42 PM


Re: About the Topic
How can Zi Ko be on topic in a thread about how novel features evolve while never mentioning or even alluding to novel features? He's not talking about how guided evolution can create novel features. He's just talking about his favorite topic, guided evolution, and ignoring the topic of this thread. What Zi Ko is saying here is no different from what he said in the Wright thread. Zi Ko does not change topic when he changes threads - he only has one topic.
Your position is akin to arguing that the milling of lumber is on topic in discussions ranging from home building to furniture manufacturing to sandpaper. It isn't like there isn't a relationship, but the topic demarcations are not subtle.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Add clarifying sentence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2012 1:42 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2012 7:15 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 184 of 402 (672599)
09-09-2012 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by RAZD
09-09-2012 7:15 PM


Re: About the Topic
RAZD writes:
So let's ask: IF we accept that "directed\guided evolution (zi ko)" occurs, THEN how does that produce novel features? ie what's the next step in his thesis to increased diversity of species.
If you click on "Percy posts only" and peruse the messages you'll see that this has already been done several times. Should we wait until everyone (including a moderator a couple days ago) has asked him to address the topic?
In general I feel participants should be allowed considerable leeway in addressing the topic, but Zi Ko has a demonstrated history of raising his favorite pet topic in any thread he posts. I've done most of the work moderating Zi Ko, but I'm a participant in this thread, so I'm trying to recruit the other participants to help keep the thread on-topic.
Zi Ko wants to talk about guided evolution. That's all he wants to talk about. Unless he begins talking about guided evolution leading to novelty he shouldn't be engaged in discussion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2012 7:15 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2012 8:39 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 195 of 402 (672679)
09-10-2012 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by zi ko
09-10-2012 11:31 AM


Hi Zi Ko,
Discussion in this thread ceased before it reached the 300 message limit when it would be closed, but that doesn't mean this thread is now available to discuss anything related to evolution. It you'd like to talk about how novel features evolve then please proceed, by all means.
But if you'd just like to talk about guided evolution then please propose a new thread over at Proposed New Topics. Then you'll be able to talk about guided evolution to your heart's content.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by zi ko, posted 09-10-2012 11:31 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024