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Author Topic:   Counter-Apologetics
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 35 of 101 (846323)
01-04-2019 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by dwise1
06-06-2012 3:38 AM


Why Apologise for Apologetics?
dWise1 writes:

A Christian needs to always find some way to get every argument to come back around to the Christ. An atheist just needs to consider what's actually going on. A Christian has to also think always about what other Christians think of his solution; an atheist only needs to offer a solution.

Good point.

But I target ringo, here. He seems to have a problem with apologetics in general...citing them as simply wrong.

I dunno...I've heard some good ones lately...one I shared with ICANT at the GD thread.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by dwise1, posted 06-06-2012 3:38 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2019 7:57 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 37 of 101 (846327)
01-04-2019 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by PaulK
01-04-2019 7:57 AM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
There is only one...the video by ravi zacharias. What do you find incredulous about his point? I thought it well done.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2019 7:57 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2019 8:42 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 39 of 101 (846330)
01-04-2019 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by PaulK
01-04-2019 8:42 AM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
no, although those two are a counterargument, in my opinion. Richard Carrier does not impress me.
A Response to "Why I Don't Buy the Resurrection Story". The counter-apologists use an entirely different set of facts and I intuitively question their overall motive for what they attempt to do.
Jesus Did Exist: A Response to Richard Carrier. I suppose I'm picking on Carrier specifically, but he does annoy me with his claims.
Dawkins is harmless...rather amusing, actually and I like him.
Sam Harris uses some persuasive cultural arguments which should be entertained...if but to provide a broader perspective of reality.

Quid Pro Quo, Dr.Lector. What dont you like about Parson?

And what I wanted you to listen to is the one video by Ravi Zacharias.
here.(post 39) Its short.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2019 8:42 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2019 9:32 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2019 9:48 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 42 of 101 (846342)
01-04-2019 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by PaulK
01-04-2019 9:48 AM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
You and i must be miles apart!
Granted you see no reason for religion or belief at all so i understand your position somewhat. To me Ravi is honest. His arguments appear rational to members of the choir. You see no reason to sing so i cant persuade you there. Our worldviews share little in common. I fail to see why his argument is bad however.

Edited by Phat, : Spelling


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2019 9:48 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2019 3:44 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 11:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 92 by ramoss, posted 01-29-2019 4:19 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 44 of 101 (846362)
01-05-2019 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by PaulK
01-04-2019 3:44 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
PaulK writes:

I’m quite happy to take on any argument from that little video. If the points above don’t cover it just tell me what the argument says - or any other apologetic argument you think good. Text is so much better for debate than video.

I may mount an argument/discussion with you regarding these matters. I'll likely lose on points--your arguments are well presented.

When I tackle an opponent, my main thrust is to discern their motive for argument. Broken down, it simply means that believers want people to see why they believe and that belief is rational. You seem content with challenging this assumption. I would dare to ask you why? Do you honestly believe that people are better off believing--based on inconclusive evidence thus far--that Jesus was at best mortal and historical and that the God of the Bible...or any other religion---simply likely does not exist?

Apparently, I care about the truth and you don’t.
Your conclusions, if I understand them correctly, are premature. In addition, I see nothing useful that could be gained through your argumentative persuasion for readers to think as you do.

So to begin, I would ask you why you believe in your argument? I can see why a Christian apologist would defend their faith. What I don't see is why you defend yours?

Here is a rough breakdown of the points presented in the video:

RZIM writes:

The answers that Ravi and John provide are both kind and insightful.

In their response, they clarify that:

Any point of view is exclusive of all other points of view.
The real question is which point of view is true.
We can fairly test the major worldview by examining how well they answer four questions:
A. Origin
B. Meaning
C. Morality
D. Destiny
The answer to each question must meet two criteria:
A. It must correspond to the truth - matching empirical evidence or the tests of reason
B. It must fit together with the answers to the three other questions - coherence.
Finally, there are really only three fundamental worldviews:
A. Only the universe exists (e.g., naturalism).
B. Only God exists.
C. Both God and the universe exist (e.g., Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).

I encourage you to take some time to reflect on their answers. Are they right? Have they missed something?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2019 3:44 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2019 7:04 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 46 of 101 (846365)
01-05-2019 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by PaulK
01-05-2019 7:04 AM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
RZIM writes:


Finally, there are really only three fundamental worldviews:
A. Only the universe exists (e.g., naturalism).
B. Only God exists.
C. Both God and the universe exist (e.g., Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).

PaulK writes:

I have to say that option 3 includes drastically different worldviews, including (at least some forms of) Buddhism and Deism - and many others - as well as the Abrahamic faiths. I don’t think you can get a coherent set of answers to their questions out of it, so how can it qualify as a worldview?

Focusing on option 3, how I interpret it is that both materialism(cosmos) and spirit(gods of one type or another) exist. It is, of course, a belief in which we have no evidence for. Thus we can choose to consider it or we can choose option A.

If we choose C, we then would go on to define which "God" we were talking about. Tangle limits everything to the book itself...whereas believers have described a more detailed God based on their beliefs(imaginations). So to start with, in matters of belief...why limit a character to a book? If the character being discussed is a Deity, would it not make sense that the character was larger than the book itself?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2019 7:04 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2019 4:30 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 48 of 101 (846378)
01-05-2019 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
01-05-2019 11:31 AM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
I just did. Look up a couple of posts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 11:31 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 2:43 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 50 of 101 (846380)
01-05-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
01-05-2019 2:43 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
I'd have to really dissect what Ravi says concerning doctrine, but its nothing new that we have not discussed.

Add by Edit:L Thinking back, Im trying to compile a summary of *YOUR* Doctrine...lemme think....the message is whats important rather than the messenger....most Christians fail to follow the message (of Matthew 25) and only defend the messenger...Ravi does this...but we cant judge his mission...he may well hand out spare change as well...

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 2:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 2:57 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 52 of 101 (846383)
01-05-2019 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
01-05-2019 2:57 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
ooops

Add by Edit:L Thinking back, Im trying to compile a summary of *YOUR* Doctrine...lemme think....the message is whats important rather than the messenger....most Christians fail to follow the message (of Matthew 25) and only defend the messenger...Ravi does this...but we cant judge his mission...he may well hand out spare change as well...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 2:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:04 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 54 of 101 (846386)
01-05-2019 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
01-05-2019 3:04 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
You and Tangle both have taken a position that Jesus never existed apart from a historical figure (if at all) and then Tangle goes on to argue that without the resurrection, Christianity is irrelevant. You, on the other hand, argue that the message has value.
I'm trying to find out what it is that you think I should respect.
I'll tell you what I respect about your message. You and jar both emphasize the *doing* part. Feeding. Clothing. Spare Changing. Loving. I respect that. What I challenge (yet find hard to attack) is the idea that there is no evidence for God, Jesus,(as God) or that a Holy Spirit is around that makes us humans any wiser. It's a challenge! You have a good argument.

But as to what you should respect, I'm curious why you have dismissed the apologists. Like Parson. I see that you cant watch videos...which makes it tougher for me. It's hard to compile written apologetic arguments...since I myself am basically my own apologist after listening to so many others. I do know that I don't dismiss their intelligence nor motive as readily as you do.

You confidently proclaim them as simply WRONG, as if you've somehow won an intellectual chess game. I challenge your premature conclusion, as I challenge PaulK. He seems to enjoy it!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:17 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 56 of 101 (846396)
01-05-2019 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
01-05-2019 3:17 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
ringo writes:

I'd rather have a more decisive win but it's hard to get you to pry them out of their videos.

Sorry...I prefer videos. Is it my fault you cant watch them? Here is another one...but I'll include the basic outline for you to challenge.

Outline:

quote:

Ravi starts by asking, “Do you lock your door at night?” The questioner laughs and says, “Yea. Sure.”

I hear what you’re saying. It sounds very cavalier though.
Do you know who has killed more people in the 20th century than China and Russia? 60 million apiece. Wow. It makes the Holocaust seem tame. The 20th century became the bloodiest century in history. And the reason it became the bloodiest century in history is you can see the weapons of our warfare piling up and there was no guiding principle to take us anywhere.
In a perfect world, we don’t need to be afraid.
I don’t think the question is fairly stated as what are you afraid of, I am just saying it is basically unliveable.
The fact of the matter is if morality is purely subjective than you have absolutely nothing for stopping anybody for being a subjective moralist, to just zing one through your forehead and say, ‘that’s my answer.’
If you’re willing to say to me that moral reasoning can be purely subjective, I just say to you, ‘look out, you ain’t see nothing yet if everybody believed what you did.’
Subjective morality would be good if we all wanted to be nice people…But the reason you lock your doors, and the reason we have our police, and military, and law courts, is because when subjective morality becomes totally subjectivized, this [mass killings in societies like the former Soviet Union] is what happens in our society.
Questions:

Why do you think this video is so popular?
What do you see as the appeal of subjective moral reasoning?
What are some creative and interesting ways that you have persuaded people they need to find an absolute basis for morality?


So I guess our question is this: Is there such a thing as absolute morality? If so, how is it determined? I would argue that subscription to belief is essentially betting on a given absolute.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:54 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 01-05-2019 4:01 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 59 of 101 (846404)
01-05-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by NosyNed
01-05-2019 4:01 PM


Re: Discussions
I'll have to think about it.... Happy New Year, Ned...by the way

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 01-05-2019 4:01 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 61 of 101 (846409)
01-05-2019 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
01-05-2019 3:54 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
...After all, God's "absolute morality" doesn't even apply to Himself.
I dont count the OT God. People simply wrote about Him and filled in their own thoughts in His words. Jesus is more reliable...apart from tipping over a few tables and killing a tree, He showed little in the way of instability.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:54 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 4:26 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 65 of 101 (846416)
01-05-2019 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
01-05-2019 4:26 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
The goats need to be burned up. It's like the human body and autophagy. Inefficient, diseased and weak cells get consumed and remade into healthy cells. Goats are a hindrance to human progression. Even if I were a goat, I would agree that I needed to get eliminated.

Now...to be specific...it is horrendous behavior was it the Nazis, for example. They had no right to judge which people were chosen and which were disposable. I would argue, however, that God not only has a right to autophage the inefficient humans, but He knows that it will lead to better people for His purpose in the future. you don't trust Him, so I can see your counter-arguments. And to be specific...people...humans themselves should never determine that they are acting on behalf of God. We need to focus on loving and helping each other more. Let God take care of the goats His own way and in His own time.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 4:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 5:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12976
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 67 of 101 (846480)
01-07-2019 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
01-05-2019 5:07 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament.
Not really. Jesus represents God in the NT. Jesus is hardly like Jehovah.

Without Jesus, there would be no NT. Furthermore, the OT God never speaks in the NT except to say "this is my beloved son of whom I am well pleased. Hardly sounds like the vengeful OT god.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 5:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 01-07-2019 1:43 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
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