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Author Topic:   Counter-Apologetics
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 46 of 101 (846365)
01-05-2019 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by PaulK
01-05-2019 7:04 AM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
RZIM writes:


Finally, there are really only three fundamental worldviews:
A. Only the universe exists (e.g., naturalism).
B. Only God exists.
C. Both God and the universe exist (e.g., Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).

PaulK writes:

I have to say that option 3 includes drastically different worldviews, including (at least some forms of) Buddhism and Deism - and many others - as well as the Abrahamic faiths. I don’t think you can get a coherent set of answers to their questions out of it, so how can it qualify as a worldview?

Focusing on option 3, how I interpret it is that both materialism(cosmos) and spirit(gods of one type or another) exist. It is, of course, a belief in which we have no evidence for. Thus we can choose to consider it or we can choose option A.

If we choose C, we then would go on to define which "God" we were talking about. Tangle limits everything to the book itself...whereas believers have described a more detailed God based on their beliefs(imaginations). So to start with, in matters of belief...why limit a character to a book? If the character being discussed is a Deity, would it not make sense that the character was larger than the book itself?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2019 7:04 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2019 4:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 47 of 101 (846370)
01-05-2019 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
01-04-2019 3:12 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
Phat writes:

I fail to see why his argument is bad however.


Why don't you bring his arguments here? If you tried to explain them in your own words, maybe they wouldn't seem so rational after all.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 01-04-2019 3:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:23 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 48 of 101 (846378)
01-05-2019 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
01-05-2019 11:31 AM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
I just did. Look up a couple of posts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 11:31 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 2:43 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 49 of 101 (846379)
01-05-2019 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
01-05-2019 2:23 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
Phat writes:

I just did. Look up a couple of posts.


That's just philosophical gibberish. If you're going to defend apologists, defend their positions on Christian doctrine.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:48 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 50 of 101 (846380)
01-05-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
01-05-2019 2:43 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
I'd have to really dissect what Ravi says concerning doctrine, but its nothing new that we have not discussed.

Add by Edit:L Thinking back, Im trying to compile a summary of *YOUR* Doctrine...lemme think....the message is whats important rather than the messenger....most Christians fail to follow the message (of Matthew 25) and only defend the messenger...Ravi does this...but we cant judge his mission...he may well hand out spare change as well...

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 2:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 2:57 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 51 of 101 (846382)
01-05-2019 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
01-05-2019 2:48 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
Phat writes:

I'd have to really dissect what Ravi says concerning doctrine, but its nothing new that we have not discussed.


If it makes so much sense to you, you must have already disected it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:48 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:58 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 52 of 101 (846383)
01-05-2019 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
01-05-2019 2:57 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
ooops

Add by Edit:L Thinking back, Im trying to compile a summary of *YOUR* Doctrine...lemme think....the message is whats important rather than the messenger....most Christians fail to follow the message (of Matthew 25) and only defend the messenger...Ravi does this...but we cant judge his mission...he may well hand out spare change as well...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 2:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:04 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 53 of 101 (846384)
01-05-2019 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
01-05-2019 2:58 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
Phat writes:

Thinking back, Im trying to compile a summary of *YOUR* Doctrine...


You complain that I don't respect apologists. I'm trying to find out what it is that you think I should respect.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 2:58 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 3:11 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 54 of 101 (846386)
01-05-2019 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
01-05-2019 3:04 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
You and Tangle both have taken a position that Jesus never existed apart from a historical figure (if at all) and then Tangle goes on to argue that without the resurrection, Christianity is irrelevant. You, on the other hand, argue that the message has value.
I'm trying to find out what it is that you think I should respect.
I'll tell you what I respect about your message. You and jar both emphasize the *doing* part. Feeding. Clothing. Spare Changing. Loving. I respect that. What I challenge (yet find hard to attack) is the idea that there is no evidence for God, Jesus,(as God) or that a Holy Spirit is around that makes us humans any wiser. It's a challenge! You have a good argument.

But as to what you should respect, I'm curious why you have dismissed the apologists. Like Parson. I see that you cant watch videos...which makes it tougher for me. It's hard to compile written apologetic arguments...since I myself am basically my own apologist after listening to so many others. I do know that I don't dismiss their intelligence nor motive as readily as you do.

You confidently proclaim them as simply WRONG, as if you've somehow won an intellectual chess game. I challenge your premature conclusion, as I challenge PaulK. He seems to enjoy it!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:17 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 55 of 101 (846388)
01-05-2019 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
01-05-2019 3:11 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
Phat writes:

You confidently proclaim them as simply WRONG, as if you've somehow won an intellectual chess game.


If they don't show up for the game, I win by default. I'd rather have a more decisive win but it's hard to get you to pry them out of their videos.

Phat writes:

I challenge your premature conclusion...


But you don't actually challenge it. You just say you do.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 3:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 3:29 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 56 of 101 (846396)
01-05-2019 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
01-05-2019 3:17 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
ringo writes:

I'd rather have a more decisive win but it's hard to get you to pry them out of their videos.

Sorry...I prefer videos. Is it my fault you cant watch them? Here is another one...but I'll include the basic outline for you to challenge.

Outline:

quote:

Ravi starts by asking, “Do you lock your door at night?” The questioner laughs and says, “Yea. Sure.”

I hear what you’re saying. It sounds very cavalier though.
Do you know who has killed more people in the 20th century than China and Russia? 60 million apiece. Wow. It makes the Holocaust seem tame. The 20th century became the bloodiest century in history. And the reason it became the bloodiest century in history is you can see the weapons of our warfare piling up and there was no guiding principle to take us anywhere.
In a perfect world, we don’t need to be afraid.
I don’t think the question is fairly stated as what are you afraid of, I am just saying it is basically unliveable.
The fact of the matter is if morality is purely subjective than you have absolutely nothing for stopping anybody for being a subjective moralist, to just zing one through your forehead and say, ‘that’s my answer.’
If you’re willing to say to me that moral reasoning can be purely subjective, I just say to you, ‘look out, you ain’t see nothing yet if everybody believed what you did.’
Subjective morality would be good if we all wanted to be nice people…But the reason you lock your doors, and the reason we have our police, and military, and law courts, is because when subjective morality becomes totally subjectivized, this [mass killings in societies like the former Soviet Union] is what happens in our society.
Questions:

Why do you think this video is so popular?
What do you see as the appeal of subjective moral reasoning?
What are some creative and interesting ways that you have persuaded people they need to find an absolute basis for morality?


So I guess our question is this: Is there such a thing as absolute morality? If so, how is it determined? I would argue that subscription to belief is essentially betting on a given absolute.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 3:54 PM Phat has responded
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 01-05-2019 4:01 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 57 of 101 (846401)
01-05-2019 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
01-05-2019 3:29 PM


Re: Why Apologise for Apologetics?
Phat writes:

Sorry...I prefer videos. Is it my fault you cant watch them?


Is it my fault you can't present the arguments in your own words?

Phat writes:

So I guess our question is this: Is there such a thing as absolute morality?


Well, of course there's no such thing as absolute morality. Nobody has more relative morality than Christians. After all, God's "absolute morality" doesn't even apply to Himself.

But you can see the dishonesty of the apologist right there. He's arguing against subjective morality, which is a strawman.

And again, what has that got to do with specific Christian doctrines?


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 3:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 4:18 PM ringo has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8830
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 58 of 101 (846403)
01-05-2019 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
01-05-2019 3:29 PM


Discussions
Sorry...I prefer videos. Is it my fault you cant watch them? Here is another one...but I'll include the basic outline for you to challenge.

Videos are a very poor method of making points. Usually they are full of extraneous material and inefficient at getting to the actual argument.

Also those with a weak argument don't want to write down a succinct statement of what their point is. Some of them are so weak that when you try to write it out as clearly as possible it becomes apparent that there is nothing to say.

It is interesting to observe that you are avoiding picking your most favorite point and stating it and then your second and so on. Why is that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 3:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 01-05-2019 4:02 PM NosyNed has not yet responded
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 01-05-2019 4:07 PM NosyNed has not yet responded
 Message 64 by PaulK, posted 01-05-2019 4:33 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 59 of 101 (846404)
01-05-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by NosyNed
01-05-2019 4:01 PM


Re: Discussions
I'll have to think about it.... Happy New Year, Ned...by the way

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 01-05-2019 4:01 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 60 of 101 (846405)
01-05-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by NosyNed
01-05-2019 4:01 PM


Re: Discussions
NosyNed writes:

Some of them are so weak that when you try to write it out as clearly as possible it becomes apparent that there is nothing to say.


My post count would be a lot higher if every thought was as brilliant written down as it is in my head.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 01-05-2019 4:01 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
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