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Author Topic:   Unpaid Work For The Unemployed
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 300 (665221)
06-10-2012 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
06-10-2012 10:34 AM


On one hand this (as the link suggests) is seen as free labour for multi-million dollar companies and obvious exploitation of the unemployed.
On the other hand many argue that this provides valuable work experience for those in danger of becoming effectively unemployable if they just remain long term on benefits. Link
Who is right and who is wrong?
Looks like they're both right, and neither is wrong. We'd need some data to do any figurin' and I'm afraid there's not gonna be enough on this kinda stuff :-\

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2012 10:34 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2012 1:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 300 (665235)
06-10-2012 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Straggler
06-10-2012 1:11 PM


So - Does unpaid work have any economic value.....?
Sure: Deduct the labor cost from the manufacturing side and soak it up in an increased margin, and you could easily calculate how much economic value unpaid work adds to your widget.
Utilize the reduced cost to reduce the selling price and your widget becomes a better "value" in the economy, but that's not "economic value".
Redirect the savings from labor into R&D and invent a better widget thereby adding "value" to the economy (and benefit society as a whole), but that's not what "econimc value" means either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2012 1:11 PM Straggler has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 68 of 300 (665456)
06-13-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by crashfrog
06-13-2012 3:14 PM


Re: Unpaid Work For The Unemployed
Experience - you can't get this from an unpaid job, because if you were getting experience that was relevant to a paid job, you'd be doing that job and they would be paying you.
You could follow around a photographer and get them coffee n'stuff without getting paid but get the invaluable experience of watching how they do their job and better your own performance so that you can end up getting paid to do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by crashfrog, posted 06-13-2012 3:14 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by crashfrog, posted 06-13-2012 4:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 79 of 300 (665487)
06-13-2012 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by crashfrog
06-13-2012 4:18 PM


Re: Unpaid Work For The Unemployed
You guys are so hung up on "experience" that you've failed to realize that you should be demonstrating your skill, instead.
These programs are for people who are becomming so skill-less as to be unemployable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by crashfrog, posted 06-13-2012 4:18 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 300 (665520)
06-14-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by crashfrog
06-14-2012 2:22 PM


Re: Unpaid Work For The Unemployed
Nobody's been able to explain what it is about "unpaid work for the unemployed" that solves the problem of low aggregate demand.
What makes you think the the Mandatory Work Activity scheme is intended to solve the problem of low aggregate demand? It seems to me to be designed to keep the folks on Jobseekers' Allowance from becoming so idle they're stagnant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 2:22 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 95 of 300 (665523)
06-14-2012 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Jon
06-14-2012 4:02 PM


You're simply sidetracking and avoiding the actual issues raised against your position.
Have you not met crashfrog before?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Jon, posted 06-14-2012 4:02 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 102 of 300 (665537)
06-14-2012 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by crashfrog
06-14-2012 4:30 PM


I don't really want to derail this thread into a discussion about the unpleasantness of your responses.
Well, that's not fair. I always address objections head-on,
You spun my photographer assistant analogy six ways from sideways. You completely twisted the example away from its point towards supporting your own position.
quote:
Experience - you can't get this from an unpaid job, because if you were getting experience that was relevant to a paid job, you'd be doing that job and they would be paying you.
You could follow around a photographer and get them coffee n'stuff without getting paid but get the invaluable experience of watching how they do their job and better your own performance so that you can end up getting paid to do it.
Getting coffee isn't going to make you a better photographer, and if you tried to tell someone that it did, they'd know you were an idiot. Watching other people take pictures doesn't make you a better photographer either until you put what you've learned into practice.
What makes people think you're a good photographer isn't the "experience" line on your resume, it's a fat portfolio full of awesome photographs. You guys are so hung up on "experience" that you've failed to realize that you should be demonstrating your skill, instead.
Don't you see how you totally avoid the actual issues raised against your position. That is, getting the invaluable benefit of watching how to be a good photographer as an example of getting experience without doing the job.
Later when Mod tries to explain this to you, you're all: "How are you gonna watch him while you're at Starbucks?" Again completely dodging the actual point.
I state my position clearly and don't change it as I defend it unless I'm genuinely convinced by the counter-arguments,
But rather than honestly try to understand the counter-arguments, you use them in any way you can to maintain your unchanging position. Its as if your trying to turn our positions into being wrong in any way possible rather than just seeing them for what they are trying to be. It comes off as completely disingenuous, and frankly, dishonest even.
Nobody at EvC has admitted to being wrong as often as I have. Absolutely nobody.
That's not the charge, though. And that's prolly just a function of the huge number of posts you have. What percentage of them are you admitting you're wrong?
Seriously, go back through my posts and look at how frequently I admit to being wrong.
I'm not going through almost 19 thousand posts, crash.
It's earned my respect. I wish it was returned.
I do respect your creativity in being able to spin peoples' positions in so many different directions than they intended
As far as addressing objections head on, how about replying to Message 79 and Message 92.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 4:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 7:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 124 of 300 (665622)
06-15-2012 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by crashfrog
06-14-2012 7:03 PM


You're going to have to explain in more detail, I guess, because the exchange you quoted is me directly addressing the issue you raised against your my position, not avoiding it.
Look, CS, I get to do that - if you present a counterexample against my position, I get to explain how it's not really a counterexample at all.
Okay, so you make an absolute statement that you cannot get experience by working for free. I come up with an example of working for free and getting some experience. Now, you could try to use my example to falsify your own position, that is, is there any way that you could imagine my example as a way of working for free and getting experience (watching how a photographer sets up shots would be good xp for a newb). If you can, then your position is wrong. Or the other way, the way you actually do it, is to try to think of any way in which my example does not falsify your position (you cannot get photography xp while your busy getting coffee). You're not addressing it as something that challanges your position at all, you're avoiding that at all cost in exchange for something you can easily defeat in order to maintain your position in the debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 7:03 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 10:53 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 126 of 300 (665624)
06-15-2012 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 10:10 AM


Re: following a photographer
now you're misrepresenting me and misrepresenting CS. As you can see in the material you quoted, CS referred to getting experience as a photographer by following one around and making Starbucks runs.
Mod has understood and expressed my position perfectly well. You have my position completely differently that what I intended it to be. I cannot believe that you are stupid enough to think that's what I was saying, so it honestly looks like dileberate misrepresentation.
See, it's right there in what you quoted:
quote:
You could follow around a photographer and get them coffee n'stuff without getting paid but get the invaluable experience of watching how they do their job and better your own performance so that you can end up getting paid to do it.
What I was trying to explain, was that you'd get the experience of watching how they do their job.
Unpaid job = getting them coffee
Work experience = learning how to set up shots
Its not that difficult of a concept to grasp. You're not learning how to set up shots while your getting them coffee. You see, you go get the coffee, then you come back and watch them set up the shot.
No surprise, of course, that you want to retreat from it, but the very least you could do would be to have the decency to say you've changed your mind. I promise, I don't keep track of these things - I'm not notching a battleaxe every time someone I'm talking to comes around to agree with me. Generally I forget about it as soon as it happens. But when people try to pull the fast one you're trying to pull now - "oops, I defended a position that's actually kind of dumb, now I'll just pretend like I was defending something else all along" - I bite in and I don't let go. I don't understand why people haven't yet learned that doing that with me is always a bad idea. It never works out well for them - they always wind up looking like idiots. You're about to. Why not just admit that the notion of getting experience by fetching coffee for photographers is actually kind of stupid?
Of couse that's stupid. Its incredibly stupid. What makes you think I'm so retarded that I'd think that getting coffee makes you better at taking pictures? Give me a little bit of credit here.
And nobody's trying to pull a fast one. Have you even considered the possibility that you misinterpreted what I said?
This is just like that time you were accusing PD of changing her position when in fact all you did was misread something she said at the beginning of the thread and then the whole time you're pressing her into sticking to the thing that she never even said but you just thought she said it because you read her wrong. You're doing it again here to me and mod.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 10:10 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by dronestar, posted 06-15-2012 10:53 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 129 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 11:06 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 132 of 300 (665633)
06-15-2012 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 11:06 AM


I have not changed my mind. You misinterpreted my position. Its clear that the audience can see it and that's good enough for me. I'm not going to waste my time trying to get you to admit it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 11:06 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 11:16 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 300 (665640)
06-15-2012 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 11:16 AM


Well, you're lying. If I'd really misinterpreted your position you would have said so, right away.
No I wouldn't. Because its you, and this is what you do, I avoided talking about it and tried to stear the discussion back to the topic of the thread.
Message 79
I didn't even quote your misrepresentation of my example, because I knew it would turn into this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 11:16 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 11:32 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 148 of 300 (665652)
06-15-2012 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 11:32 AM


I'm not lying, crash, I haven't changed my position and you have interpreted it incorrectly from the beginning. I never meant that you would get experience by getting coffee, honestly. I'm not retreating because of some compelling argument from you, I really never meant that. Mod can see it, others can see it, its really true.
The funny part is that I added the getting the coffee part as an afterthought because I figured that if I didn't then you would say that following a photographer around isn't doing any work.
And the "this" that I was referring to that you do, is what we're all doing now, discussing the fine details of your interpretation of the analogy rather than the using the analogy to address the topic.
Let's get back to the actual discussion here. There's a Jobseekers' Allowance - the government gives unemployed people money. Then there's the Mandatory Work Activity scheme - if the jobseeker remains idle for too long then the government wants them to get out and do some kind of work, even if they're not getting paid for. Can that be a good thing? I think so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 11:32 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 12:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 159 of 300 (665664)
06-15-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 12:27 PM


If I had interpreted it incorrectly from the beginning you would have said that I was interpreting it incorrectly, from the beginning.
Normally, I would. But I've read enough of your posts to know that arguing with you about your interpretation of the details of the analogy would turn into this, a complete derailment of the thread. So instead, I would avoid getting into the details, just like I did. That is, until I made a snide aside to Jon when I saw he was noticing the same behavior from you that I had noticed, that we are now discussing, and then I decided to go ahead and get into the details, where I started with expressing a lack of desire to derail the thread. Message 102
So when I said that you can't get experience from getting coffee, why did you disagree so strenuously?
I didn't, what are you talking about?
How can you expect me to believe that you weren't defending the position that you can get experience by fetching coffee when all you've done is defend the position that you can get experience by fetching coffee, and attack my position that there's no experience in photography to be had from fetching coffee?
I never defended the position that you can get experience by fetching coffee. I specifically and explicitly stated that I never meant that you could get experience by fetching coffee.
I mean, regardless of whether or not you were clear, surely Iwas? You don't claim that you misunderstood my arguments. So why, then, did you spend all that time attacking me while I was taking the position that you can't get useful experience as a photographer fetching coffee, when you supposedly held that exact same position the whole time and understood the arguments I was making?
Because I'm familiar with your posting style - that is: twisting the analogy by misinterpreting the details. I honestly figure that you just do it on purpose and are having some fun with us, but I'm starting to think that you do have some sort of comprehension problem. I just figured you for a dishonest jerk, but you seem to be saying that you really and truely aren't understanding what we're saying.
Do you see why I can't believe you, CS? I would have to be a fucking idiot to believe that you've been holding the position you've been attacking, this whole time.
I'm starting to see why you think you can't believe me, but its based on the falsehood that I've been attacking that position - I've never said you can get experience by fetching coffee.
Nothing you did in this thread is consistent, in the least, with the explanation that I've misunderstood you this whole time.
Everything has been consistent with that from the beginning. Tell you what: start over from the beginning of my posts with the knowledge that I never meant that you can get experience from fetching coffee and point out where my posts don't make sense if that's true.
If I had, you would have agreed with me when I said that you couldn't get experience as a photographer by fetching coffee. But you didn't. So I know you're lying, now.
I'm not lying. I didn't agree with you because I wanted to avoid the issue of arguing over the details of the analogy rather than using the analogy to discuss the topic. That is, until I changed my mind and decided to get into this.
I disagree. Message 17 is my argument why. If it's what you wanted to talk with me about, why didn't you reply to it?
Because I was gone and when I got back the discussion had already progressed (by 50 mesages or so) towards the specific benefits you can get from working for free - which is where I chimed back in. And you never replied back to those posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 12:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 1:31 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 300 (665678)
06-15-2012 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 1:31 PM


Let me get this straight, you think that when I wrote this:
quote:
You could follow around a photographer and get them coffee n'stuff without getting paid but get the invaluable experience of watching how they do their job and better your own performance so that you can end up getting paid to do it.
...that I meant that you could get experience as a photographer by fetching them coffee. Could you explain to me how those words could mean that?
But what's actually happened is that I convinced you that it's stupid, and but you don't want to admit that I did, because that would be an admission that I was right about something and knew better than you, so now you want to pretend like you thought that all along and make me out to be the one who was agreeing with you.
Crash, you've been right about a lot of things and know better than me on plenty. I don't have a problem with that, this just happens to not be one of those times.
I understood you then. Now you're trying to lie about what you said, then, so that it looks like I misunderstood. But I didn't misunderstand. If I had you would have said so, and you would have agreed with me when I told you it was stupid to think you could get experience as a photographer by fetching coffee.
The first time I mentioned the analogy after you responded to it was to tell you that you were using it wrong. And I never defended against your misunderstanding of it. The facts are plainly against you on this and everyone but you can easily see it. When you get to the point where you think that everyone else but you is wrong and lying, then its time to take a good hard look in the mirror.
But you didn't agree. You disagreed. You disagreed so strongly, in fact, that you told me I was somehow out of bounds for even saying it. That proves that I correctly understood you at the time and that you're lying, now.
I never once disagreed, the first time I mentioned it again I told you that you had it wrong. I already asked you what your referring to with this but you ignored my request. And even if I did, how would it prove that?
What I think is out of bounds is purposfully misinterpreting someone's analogy so that it saying something incredibly stupid rather addressing the aspects of it that challange your position.
If you say that you can't get experience without getting paid, and I say that you could follow around a photographer and get them coffee n'stuff without getting paid but get the invaluable experience of watching how they do their job and better your own performance so that you can end up getting paid to do it, then for you to respond to that by claiming that I'm saying that you could get experience as a photographer by fetching them coffee is not an honest and open apporach to a debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 1:31 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 7:38 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 300 (665679)
06-15-2012 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Modulous
06-15-2012 1:43 PM


Re: following a photographer
The only thing I can figure is the source of the misunderstanding, assuming that crash isn't just being dishonest, is that back in Message 66, when he said this:
quote:
Because of the value of what they get in returnexperience, college credit, references, networking, information, etc.
I asked you what they get in return, and you told me they get "value." Now you've given me a whole list, but let's look a little closer and we'll see how it makes no sense:
Experience - you can't get this from an unpaid job, because if you were getting experience that was relevant to a paid job, you'd be doing that job and they would be paying you.
... by "experience", if he was referring specifcally to just the kind of Work Experience you would put on you resume as a list of the previous jobs you've had. Overly granting him all that, he would have a point there. I don't see that that is what Jon was talking about though, but it might have been.
However, I'm not so sure that he isn't just doing what he's accusing me of doing - that is: being convinced by our arguments that claiming that you can't get experience from an unpaid job was stupid, so now he's acting like he meant Work Experience on a resume instead. But I don't think we'll ever really know.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Modulous, posted 06-15-2012 1:43 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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