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Author Topic:   Unpaid Work For The Unemployed
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 107 of 300 (665560)
06-14-2012 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Dr Adequate
06-14-2012 2:59 PM


What is there to stop a company from saying: "Jobs? No, we have no jobs. We cannot afford to employ anyone. However, we can gain from allowing people to work for us for free, thereby avoiding the awful necessity of us paying actual wages to workers in the conventional sense, so instead let's get workers that we don't have to pay for, thus delighting our shareholders"?
Where is the economic incentive for any company to go from slave labor to waged labor?
That's pretty much what happens in the entertainment industry. Interning for Conan, for free, sometimes long hours, will eventually get you a job as a writer on another late night show or tv show. It's all about networking, that's the reason interns do it. Same goes for the Daily Show and Colbert. Interns on these shows get big rewards from it in the future. Plus, it helps weed out those who are serious about the job and those who are not.
- oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-14-2012 2:59 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 108 of 300 (665561)
06-14-2012 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by crashfrog
06-14-2012 4:30 PM


Well, that's not fair. I always address objections head-on
Is there another crashfrog who's posts we've failed to read who actually does address objections head-on?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 4:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 7:29 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 115 of 300 (665574)
06-14-2012 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Modulous
06-14-2012 7:58 PM


It seems we're not alone at least in thinking that might be a good idea. And if you're drilling someone for information, it would only be polite to make the occasional coffee run. After all, they're busy trying to make money and helping you out.
Interns where I work are more than happy to do this, if only to get to hang with some of the bigger stars and pick their brain. It seems to be more common of a tread in the arts though. I don't see an electrical apprentice for going pay just to hang out with other electricians and learn the trade.
But a young comic would gladly hand out flyers and get emails and pretty much assist a veteran comic all day just to hang and watch their creative process. Also because you meet interesting people that will eventually build a network for you.
A lot of comics these days are joining podcasts as the "side-kick" or "helper" for air time and to ride the bigger comics publicity. It works too. I watched a young comic's Twitter followers jump from 500ish to well over 2000 in a few months after she joined a podcast as the helper/intern/side-kick.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Modulous, posted 06-14-2012 7:58 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(3)
Message 130 of 300 (665630)
06-15-2012 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 10:10 AM


Re: following a photographer
I said that you couldn't get work experience that way. That's the position you're now pretending you've always held. Why not just admit that you've changed your mind, and we can just drop the whole thing?
And as you've been repeatedly shown, you can get experience that way - like with Mod's example of being told not to shoot a wedding until you've been a photographer for a while. There is a value in following a professional around, the value? Experience.
Mod has not changed his mind, it has stayed consistent. You're grasping at anything to discredit his position, but we can all read just fine.
It's a simple question, can you gain experience by doing unpaid work, for example by following a photographer around or a film director around? The answer given here by Mod and CS is of course, yes you can.
What's your answer? Seems to be no you can't - "I said that you couldn't get work experience that way".
Which is just plain wrong. You can gain a lot of experience and most people in film and photography work as unpaid interns and helpers on sets to learn and gain experience.
You're position is wrong, you can either accept that or continue to be a giant crashfrog about it.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 10:10 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 11:16 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 139 of 300 (665642)
06-15-2012 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 11:16 AM


Re: following a photographer
That's a tip, that's not "experience." How would you put that on a resume?
"Experience: A photographer told me not to shoot weddings until I had done more work." Get real, people would know you were an idiot.
You've gained experience from the tip. Not everything winds up on a resume.
When I worked as an electrician, my resume didn't say:
"Experience: I know to leave wires out in the sun for a bit because it makes it easier to strip the coating off"
But it is something of value I gained from talking with other electricians. And YES I did it for free, plenty, every fucking summer with my dad as his helper since I was 11 years old. By the time I got on an actual job I worked circles around all the 1st year apprentices with all the experience I gained. But my resume didn't say "Helper for my dad for 8 years."
No, there's no experience! How are you people not getting that?
"Experience: I followed a photographer around for a while." Nobody would think that you were experienced!
There's a lot of experience to be gained by assiting a photographer or a film director (which I have experience in) for free. Hell I've ONLY worked on films for free, all indie films. I've been production assistant, carried cameras, set up lighting, blocked out shots for directors - and I've gained a lot of experience from that. All for free.
My resume includes all of that. There is a shitload of information to be learned just by sitting on set for 8 hours, let alone be the right-hand to the director. You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
My resume includes all that free work I did. I mean, you know how quickly you'd get hired as a SAG production assiatant if say you were Judd Apatow's helper on ANY film?
None of that happens when you get coffee.
Yeah dude, CS meant you'd be getting coffee non-stop for 8 hours straight. The photographer demands 200 cups a day. You didn't know that about photographers? Oh dude, you should spend a day with them.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 11:16 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 12:04 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 142 of 300 (665645)
06-15-2012 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by dronestar
06-15-2012 11:15 AM


Re: following a photographer
Oni, even though you are not getting paid for this experience, can you use some of this in your stand up act? It's gold Oni, GOLD!!!
I just find crash's entire position to be almost childishly stubborn. I mean, film students would KILL at the chance of being a big directors assistant.
He's hung up on "experience" being solely knowing how to pull the trigger on the camera, and not focusing on ALL the knowledge one gains from just watching the masters work. You can take a thousand photos and never learn how to take a proper picture, just look at any girl on faceook's picture library. Experience is usually gained the most when you shut the fuck up and just watch someone who knows what they're doing do it right.
Anyway it is quite entertaining.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by dronestar, posted 06-15-2012 11:15 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 12:08 PM onifre has replied
 Message 146 by dronestar, posted 06-15-2012 12:09 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 143 of 300 (665646)
06-15-2012 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 11:32 AM


All because you people, for no reason at all, think I'm such an asshole that admitting I might be right about even one goddamn thing is just too much.
Foreveryoung?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 11:32 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 151 of 300 (665656)
06-15-2012 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 12:04 PM


Re: following a photographer
ExpSo if it doesn't wind up on a resume it's irrelevant to what we're talking about because how are you going to use it to get a job?
See this is where you continue to misrepresent people and are being disingenuous.
I said not everything winds up on a resume, like the example Mod gave with the wedding photography. I didn't say NONE OF IT winds up on a resume. Certainly being Apatow's assistant or being an intern on Conan winds up on a resume.
All the unpaid acting work winds up on a resume. All the unpaid intern work does too, so does assistant jobs. People want to know you've been on set and have on-set experience.
So it IS relevant to what has been talked about.
So you have a job in the movies now, right?
I can get a job in the movies right now as production assistant, but I'm busy being a professional stand-up comic. A profession I did for free for about 5 years.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 12:04 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 12:33 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 153 of 300 (665658)
06-15-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 12:08 PM


Re: following a photographer
Sure. And maybe one out of ten thousand of them will get a job as a director.
Well, here's the facts: Not every unpaid assistant will end up as a major motion picture director, BUT, every major motion picture director was an unpaid assistant.
The rest of what you wrote is just nonsense, clearly written by someone who knows nothing about the subject. So I won't even bother with it.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 12:08 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 12:34 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 157 of 300 (665662)
06-15-2012 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 12:33 PM


Re: following a photographer
This is how you guys consistently quote out of context and play word games to change your positions while you think nobody is looking. Jar calls it "palming the pea" and it's a pretty good description of the sort of misdirection and misrepresentation you've just used to exploit the fact that your reply is on a different page than my message to make me look like I said you said "none of it winds up on a resume."
Because Mod gave a single example of something that may be gained as experience, but it wasn't representing the whole of being the right-hand to a photographer. It was just a single example.
The point is that being the assistant DOES make it on the resume, but the specifics of what you learned don't.
Resume: Judd Apatow's production assitant on an indie non-SAG film. (That means no wages)
Not on the resume: Judd taught me to film just before dawn to not have to fuss with lighting for quick fill-in shots.
See the difference?
But the bigger point here is that we're having to explain this to you using ridiculously specific examples like we're talking to a child.
Who the hell do you think you guys can fool with this?
Foreveryoung?
Oh, "too busy." Good luck with that.
Well, I am typing all this in bed in my underwear, so you may have a point there. I do have a real job during the day, not every day only as needed, in the tv business. For a channel you probably watch every night. I got that job because I was a comic for so many years, and again, the first 5 were basically for free with the occasional $20 bucks and a bar tab here and there.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 12:33 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 1:18 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 169 of 300 (665681)
06-15-2012 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by crashfrog
06-15-2012 1:18 PM


Re: following a photographer
But it's the example we're talking about.
That example was, again, an example of how one can gain experience following a photographer around and/or assisting them.
On the resume it would appear as: Assistant to (insert well known photographer here)
What aren't you following?
Why does it mean "no wages"?
An indie shot when Apatow was doing indies, that was non-SAG, was done for free. Infact, you'd be surprised at how many films break even and actors make nothing. But they do it for the exposure, working with a specific director, for the experience, etc.
I'm perfectly willing to be convinced by your arguments. You just have to make the effort to make them convincing.
First you need to focus on what's being said and not swing blindly.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 1:18 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by crashfrog, posted 06-15-2012 7:40 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 225 of 300 (667216)
07-04-2012 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by crashfrog
07-04-2012 7:43 AM


See if you can find the hidden catch.
Found it:
quote:
Carlos Torres
Who wants to work for a dirty hispanic...?
Good catch, crash.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by crashfrog, posted 07-04-2012 7:43 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 07-04-2012 11:05 AM onifre has not replied

  
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