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Author Topic:   Unpaid Work For The Unemployed
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 21 of 300 (665275)
06-11-2012 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Jon
06-11-2012 9:31 AM


Re: Unpaid Work For The Unemployed
Am I reading this right? Your solution to unemployment is to simply tell the unemployed go out and get jobs?
No, you are not reading "this right". What crashfrog says is that the solution to not having enough employees to get the work done is to hire an unemployed person.
If the income generated from the work being done doesn't justify these minimum expenses, hiring will not take place. The company will either choose to let the work go undone and
And your solution to this problem is slavery?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Jon, posted 06-11-2012 9:31 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 60 of 300 (665418)
06-13-2012 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Straggler
06-12-2012 7:08 PM


Re: Unpaid Work For The Unemployed
Do you think there is ever a situation where unpaid work experience is justified? If so what situations justify unpaid work experience? Who might benefit from such unpaid work experience? Anyone?
Of course. Many internships are unpaid work. Some internships end up being job interviews. Volunteer work is unpaid, and I don't hear anyone complaining about that.
But these kinds of things are subject to abuse whenever commercial interests are present, and the abuses are difficult to police. The best protection against abuse is the fact that unpaid work is strictly voluntary. Add a compulsory component to a commercial motive and the potential for abuse seems pretty clear.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2012 7:08 PM Straggler has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 264 of 300 (668178)
07-17-2012 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by vimesey
07-11-2012 5:51 PM


Re: Starting over
Law professors vary greatly in experience, and I wouldn't try to make such a sweeping statement. Lots of top professions perform as adjunct professors. During my own time at school I had classes taught by a judge on the state supreme court, by a practicing patent attorney with decades of experience, a very experienced tax attorney, and by very experienced constitutional law professors. But there were also instructions who had spend nearly all of their time in academia and had limited experience practicing law.
One peculiarity about law schools is that the higher ranked law schools don't teach much about the actual practice of law, and tend to concentrate on teaching the principles behind the law. Those schools teach a generalization of the law and don't teach the black letter law even of the state. But most of their graduates won't practice in state anyway. By contrast, the lessor known, regional schools tend to focus more on being able to open a law firm in the state in which they reside one day after graduation.
But guess which set of graduates law firms want to pay huge salaries to upon graduation. Not the ready to practice graduates who know how to practice in state, but the graduates who can be apprentices in any state.
My experience as an engineer is that the typical engineering graduates ready to be an apprentice and that no one would expect a newly graduated civil engineer to be able to design a bridge or any other project impacting public safety on his own.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by vimesey, posted 07-11-2012 5:51 PM vimesey has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 300 (673806)
09-23-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by crashfrog
07-19-2012 2:27 PM


Re: Starting over
hat sounds like exactly the sort of highly technical work for which it was illegal to hire an unpaid intern for.
What law are you referring to here? Is it the Fair Labor Standards Act?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by crashfrog, posted 07-19-2012 2:27 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 300 (673855)
09-24-2012 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Straggler
09-24-2012 9:44 AM


Re: Starting over
Illegal? Which law was being broken?
Crashfrog may have missed the point that US law doesn't apply, but in the US there are laws related to free internships. But your project likely would have been a legal unpaid internship in the US.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Straggler, posted 09-24-2012 9:44 AM Straggler has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 300 (673905)
09-24-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Straggler
09-24-2012 12:19 PM


Re: Starting over
And I seriously doubt that an undergraduate doing work experience whilst doing part of a degree project would fall foul of the minimum wage laws even today.
You are likely correct about this. UK law makes exceptions for work by undergraduates as part of a degree program. So does US law. The laws are subject to abuse, and some companies do cross the line. But I don't think you've given out enough details to make it clear the line has been crossed in your case. What you describe sounds to me like the classic legal unpaid internship.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Straggler, posted 09-24-2012 12:19 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by crashfrog, posted 09-24-2012 6:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 279 of 300 (674006)
09-25-2012 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by crashfrog
09-24-2012 6:50 PM


When are unpaid internships legal?
Yes, and like under US law, that exception is that the work has to be without value to the employer.
That is at best a paraphrase of US law, and the difference between your paraphrase and the actual law is on point here. Further, as I understand it, UK law is far less strict than US law in this area.
Here is what FLSA requires for unpaid internships(emphasis added by me):
Fact Sheet #71: Internship Programs Under The Fair Labor Standards Act | U.S. Department of Labor
quote:
he following six criteria must be applied when making this determination:
1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.
The actual regulation is something less clear, and I would argue that Stragglers project met the requirements.
My understanding, probably imperfect, of UK law is that a student doing work as a part of an educational plan whose temporary work, and not exceeding 12 months is legitimately an unpaid internship.
http://blogs.findlaw.co.uk/...nternships-are-they-legal.html
quote:
However, National Minimum Wage legislation says that all workers in the UK who are over 16 are entitled to be paid at least the National Minimum Wage, unless they are covered by a particular exemption within the legislation. The only exemptions relevant to internships are:
students undertaking work placements as part of higher education of up to one year; and
volunteers, who are under no obligation to perform work, have no contract, can come and go as they please, and have no expectation of and do not receive any reward for the work they do.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by crashfrog, posted 09-24-2012 6:50 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by crashfrog, posted 09-26-2012 9:09 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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