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Author Topic:   Stand Your Ground ... Again
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 16 of 46 (665563)
06-14-2012 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by onifre
06-14-2012 7:01 PM


You're ignoring the fact that he was the aggressor. He went there looking for trouble, camera in hand. If you go at someone gun in hand and they act in self-defense, you cannot claim self-defense unless you withdraw from the situation. He didn't.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 7:01 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 7:53 PM subbie has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 46 (665564)
06-14-2012 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by onifre
06-14-2012 7:13 PM


Wow, I guess you just showed me how to address an objection head-on, huh?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 7:13 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1115 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 18 of 46 (665566)
06-14-2012 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by subbie
06-14-2012 7:38 PM


You're ignoring the fact that he was the aggressor. He went there looking for trouble, camera in hand.

Well the neighbors went exactly the Kennedy's. They were a bunch of thug-ish people, making a lot of noise and being obnoxious. He's probably had that issue in the past with them. I believe he asked them numerous times to turn the music down. And three men did assault him (here's a good use of that word again) and take his camera, which is after that when he shot.

I'm not saying I agree with anything he did, I'm just saying the stand your ground law should protect him in this case. He was aggressive toward aggressive people.

If you go at someone gun in hand and they act in self-defense, you cannot claim self-defense unless you withdraw from the situation. He didn't.

I'm not sure he "went at someone with gun in hand" as though he was going to shoot them. He garnished the weapon when he was surrounded by a bunch of dudes at a party after he asked them to turn it down. They did get aggressive with him, which is what normally happens when you ask a bunch of drunks to turn the music down.

I'm just pointing to the fact that once attacked inthe street by three men he did stand his ground.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 7:38 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 8:05 PM onifre has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 1115 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 19 of 46 (665567)
06-14-2012 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
06-14-2012 7:39 PM


Wow, I guess you just showed me how to address an objection head-on, huh?

You gave me some blanket analogy about gravity, which I was supposed to desipher. So I just dismissed it instead.

If you want to add something of substance to the debate I'll respond head-on.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 7:39 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 20 of 46 (665570)
06-14-2012 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by onifre
06-14-2012 7:53 PM


I'm just pointing to the fact that once attacked inthe street by three men he did stand his ground.

And still ignoring the fact that he was the initial aggressor.

So they weren't the Kennedys. So what? So they were loud and obnoxious. So what? So they were thuggish. So what? They were not attacking him. He was the aggressor. He is not entitled to a self-defense claim.

Yes, he stood his ground when three men went at him in the street. Those three men went at him in the street because he was not just brandishing a weapon but pointing it at them. They were entitled to claim self-defense against him.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 7:53 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 8:19 PM subbie has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1115 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 21 of 46 (665573)
06-14-2012 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by subbie
06-14-2012 8:05 PM


And still ignoring the fact that he was the initial aggressor.

When exactly was he the initial aggressor? I'm not ignoring it, I'm just not seeing exactly when he was the initial aggressor.

He went over to a house where drunk people were playing music too loud. He was confronted aggressively by the man who was eventually shot and two other men - and the others at the party too; he was way out numbered. He took out his gun to get himself away from the situation where he was out numbered and clearly out of his element. The men then followed him out into the street where he stood his ground.

I don't see where he was the sole aggressor here or even the first.

If my neighbors are some tough dudes, who are throwing a loud ass party, I would probably also arm myself if I'm going to confront them about the noise. Wouldn't you?

Yes, he stood his ground when three men went at him in the street. Those three men went at him in the street because he was not just brandishing a weapon but pointing it at them. They were entitled to claim self-defense against him.

I guess that's where I'm having the problem. DId he pull the gun out as a defense when he initially confroned them about the music, or did he walk in to the neighbors house waving a gun around pointing at people and threatening them? The way I read the story it was the former.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 8:05 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 11:53 PM onifre has responded
 Message 23 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-15-2012 12:26 AM onifre has responded

    
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 22 of 46 (665591)
06-14-2012 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by onifre
06-14-2012 8:19 PM


When exactly was he the initial aggressor?

When he pulled his gun before anyone had said or done anything threatening. Have you seen the video? If not, you need to watch it, or you don't know what you are talking about.

If my neighbors are some tough dudes, who are throwing a loud ass party, I would probably also arm myself if I'm going to confront them about the noise. Wouldn't you?

No. I'd let the police handle it. Seriously, if I genuinely think my life would be in danger if I confronted someone over loud music, I'd be an idiot to go do that. My life is worth considerably more to me, as is the life of any other random human being, including one who is loud, obnoxious, thuggish and playing music too loud. And anyone who doesn't see that the same way is an idiot.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 8:19 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 06-15-2012 1:20 AM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16096
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 23 of 46 (665593)
06-15-2012 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by onifre
06-14-2012 8:19 PM


I don't see where he was the sole aggressor here or even the first.

Talking to someone, even if you raise your voice and use naughty words, is not an act of aggression. Shooting someone, by contrast, is.

If my neighbors are some tough dudes, who are throwing a loud ass party, I would probably also arm myself if I'm going to confront them about the noise. Wouldn't you?

We are obviously very different people.

I guess that's where I'm having the problem. DId he pull the gun out as a defense ...

No.

A defense from what?

http://www.southparkstudios.com/...4/its-coming-right-for-us


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 8:19 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by onifre, posted 06-15-2012 1:31 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 1115 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 24 of 46 (665594)
06-15-2012 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by subbie
06-14-2012 11:53 PM


Have you seen the video? If not, you need to watch it, or you don't know what you are talking about.

No I didn't watch the video but I read the news story describing what took place. Does it change that much from video to printed word?

No. I'd let the police handle it. Seriously, if I genuinely think my life would be in danger if I confronted someone over loud music, I'd be an idiot to go do that.

Well some people don't have a problem confronting would be tough guys, and it is America and you so allowed to arm yourself.

Given that you do confront someone over an issue, you are then allowed to use leathal force if you feel your life is in danger. You are also within your right to stand your ground and not have to back down from aggressors. Being that the situation took place in the street, where the three mean followed Rodriguez, stand your ground should protect him.

This case doesn't end here. You'll see.

My life is worth considerably more to me, as is the life of any other random human being, including one who is loud, obnoxious, thuggish and playing music too loud. And anyone who doesn't see that the same way is an idiot.

I say if someone doesn't agree with you just shoot them.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1115 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 25 of 46 (665595)
06-15-2012 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dr Adequate
06-15-2012 12:26 AM


Talking to someone, even if you raise your voice and use naughty words, is not an act of aggression.

It sure can be. I've witnessed many instances where naughty words and raising your voice is very aggressive. Where did I witness that again? Oh yeah, every morning on the subway.

Shooting someone, by contrast, is.

When it is self-defense is it also an act of aggression?

We are obviously very different people.

Clearly...

No.

A defense from what?

From aggressors. Are you not following? You confront some drunk thugs at a party and instantly you're surrounded by them telling you to fuck off. You pull out a gun as a defense to get yourself out of the situation. You get followed out into the street by three drunk mean who have now attacked you and taken your camera. Stand your ground law says you can shoot and you don't have to back down.

I'm not saying I agree with the law, but it is the law nonetheless.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-15-2012 12:26 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-15-2012 2:16 AM onifre has responded
 Message 27 by dwise1, posted 06-15-2012 2:28 AM onifre has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16096
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 26 of 46 (665597)
06-15-2012 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by onifre
06-15-2012 1:31 AM


It sure can be. I've witnessed many instances where naughty words and raising your voice is very aggressive.

You're a delicate little flower, aren't you? But whether or not we class it as aggression, it is not the sort of aggression that warrants an armed response.

From aggressors. Are you not following? You confront some drunk thugs at a party and instantly you're surrounded by them telling you to fuck off. You pull out a gun as a defense to get yourself out of the situation. You get followed out into the street by three drunk mean who have now attacked you and taken your camera. Stand your ground law says you can shoot and you don't have to back down.

But that is not what happened.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3490
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 27 of 46 (665598)
06-15-2012 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by onifre
06-15-2012 1:31 AM


Dr. Adequate writes:

Talking to someone, even if you raise your voice and use naughty words, is not an act of aggression.

It sure can be. I've witnessed many instances where naughty words and raising your voice is very aggressive. Where did I witness that again? Oh yeah, every morning on the subway.

OK, maybe I'm stereotyping, but I assume that you're a "Na'Yahker!"

I loved that scene in the second Hulk movie, with Ed Norton and the inestimable Liv Taylor. He had to constantly think of how to keep from getting ampped up into turning green and really big. Go through the subway? Too dangerous! Then, realizing that a subway ride was too dangerous, they took a taxi and she was left absolutely livid while he, The Hulk, was trying to calm her down as she was also lashing out at him. Classic!

OK, defense or aggression?

Desmond Morris' second book was "The Human Zoo." What happens when we artificially crowd animals together? All kinds of aberrant behavior and all kinds of problems from overcrowding. The premise of Morris' book was that we don't have an "urban jungle", but rather a "human zoo".

Solutions to situations in a small town must necessarily be different than in a big city. In a small town, everybody knows everybody else (I served in a state, North Dakota, where not only did everybody know everybody else, but most of them were cousins to whatever degree), but in the big city everybody is anonymous to everybody else.


This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 28 of 46 (665599)
06-15-2012 3:29 AM


From what i gather sand your ground law manes basically if your life is in danger you can kill the agressor. Nothing new to me but what that guy did would never fly in court, he had the chance to call the cops he could have returned home after thelling the naighbors to be quiet and then call the cops. What he did murder, dosent even matter if the guys actually attacked him he was the guy with the gun they had no gun, he was yelling at the naighbors to do something, they just thought they where in the right or even if they dint, if he dint bring the gun there no one would have died. They should heave called the cops that thers a lunatic waving a gun outside their house.

Edit: ok i was wrong after watching th vido i think it would fly in our courts and he could be innocent, he wasent on their property and at the end of the video it looked like he got attacked by a guy. But that is what courts are for.
The only lesson learned here is if you mix idiots with guns people die.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


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onifre
Member (Idle past 1115 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 29 of 46 (665600)
06-15-2012 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
06-15-2012 2:16 AM


You're a delicate little flower, aren't you?

Well I once yelled assault when shoved in the mall fighting over a lilac cardigan. So yes, quite delicate indeed.

But whether or not we class it as aggression

No, whether or not it is aggression is the very point you were trying to establish. Naughty words and rasing your voice at someone can be seen as an act of aggression. But you know that, you're just playing dumb.

it is not the sort of aggression that warrants an armed response.

That has nothing to do with the point you brought up.

But that is not what happened.

Here's the video so we can avoid what did and didn't happen.

As you can see, the three men drove up to him, threatened him, told him they'd go grab a gun too, then assaulted him...so he fired at that point. He never walked into their home making any threats or waving a gun. He pulled out the gun when the three men, who were drunk, came at him.

He called the police and stood in the street waiting for them when HE was confronted by three aggressive and drunk men.

Btw, they were not thugs, they are clearly rednecks.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-15-2012 2:16 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1115 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 30 of 46 (665601)
06-15-2012 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by dwise1
06-15-2012 2:28 AM


OK, maybe I'm stereotyping, but I assume that you're a "Na'Yahker!"

Yessir...

OK, defense or aggression?

Desmond Morris' second book was "The Human Zoo." What happens when we artificially crowd animals together? All kinds of aberrant behavior and all kinds of problems from overcrowding. The premise of Morris' book was that we don't have an "urban jungle", but rather a "human zoo".

Solutions to situations in a small town must necessarily be different than in a big city. In a small town, everybody knows everybody else (I served in a state, North Dakota, where not only did everybody know everybody else, but most of them were cousins to whatever degree), but in the big city everybody is anonymous to everybody else.

I still say defense. Although, yes, a quite aggressive defense. But hey, it is America!

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by dwise1, posted 06-15-2012 2:28 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
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