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Author Topic:   The Electric Eel - more evidence against evolution
ramoss
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Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 61 of 101 (704365)
08-08-2013 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Genomicus
08-08-2013 11:09 PM


Re: another rather typical misconception
As is the electric eel, when you take into account account accumulative change over time, with the filter of the environment the eel was in.
This message is a reply to:
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Percy
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Posts: 18496
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 62 of 101 (704366)
08-09-2013 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Haldir
08-08-2013 6:24 PM


Haldir writes:

P.S. How do I do properly formatted blockquotes on this forum? Just hitting reply on a post doesn't put any text in the box, and pasting it text with blockquote tags indents but with no border/coloration.

Click the "peek" button at the bottom right of any message with quotes and you'll see how they did it.

--Percy


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Stile
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Posts: 3529
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 63 of 101 (704368)
08-09-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Haldir
08-08-2013 6:33 PM


Re: Immediate or Gradual?
Haldir writes:

My understanding was that the cells have to be lined up AND the muscles have to fire at the same time AND the tuning has to be there for there to be ANY electrocuting at all, but I certainly don't have a detailed understanding of the process at this point.

Unfortunately, I'm not much help here.

Maybe we both need to learn a bit more before drawing any conclusions :]


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jar
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Posts: 30996
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 64 of 101 (704369)
08-09-2013 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Genomicus
08-08-2013 11:09 PM


Re: another rather typical misconception
Actually, significantly more complex systems could only evolve if the changes were cumulative (meaning that the changes cumulatively added a selective advantage).

Nonsense.

Advantageous changes don't get selected; seriously disadvantageous changes that prevent reproduction get selected.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
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Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 65 of 101 (704370)
08-09-2013 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
08-09-2013 8:56 AM


What is selected?
Advantageous changes don't get selected; seriously disadvantageous changes that prevent reproduction get selected.

I disagree with the statement. It expresses the situation from only one point of view. If an individual is born with a mutation that will be fatal before it can reproduce then expressing it as you have seems to be the most sensible way to describe it. But it is just as true that an individual without the mutation has been selected positively. It's a filter. Both things which fall through it and things which don't have been selected. Some positively and some negatively.

So you don't use the word selected all naked like that. It is selected for or selected against.


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 101 (704372)
08-09-2013 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
08-09-2013 8:56 AM


Re: another rather typical misconception
Advantageous changes don't get selected; seriously disadvantageous changes that prevent reproduction get selected.

As I understand your statement it is wrong. Genomicus is also not quite correct for different reasons.

Changes that enhance the chances of generating viable offspring do enhance the prospects of a population dominating over those without the advantage.

Selection is both a negative (purifying selection) as well as a positive process.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 67 of 101 (704373)
08-09-2013 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by ramoss
08-08-2013 11:53 PM


Re: another rather typical misconception

As is the electric eel, when you take into account account accumulative change over time, with the filter of the environment the eel was in.

Correct -- if there is an evolutionary pathway that consists of steps that provide a selective advantage, there is no real problem for the evolution of that system.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30996
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 68 of 101 (704374)
08-09-2013 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
08-09-2013 9:33 AM


Re: another rather typical misconception
Again, yes, some changes may give some critters an advantage BUT only in a very limited sense.

It is only when those critters in a population don't reproduce that a trait gets filter out.

Sexual selection is a good example.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 08-09-2013 9:33 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30996
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 69 of 101 (704375)
08-09-2013 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by NosyNed
08-09-2013 9:28 AM


Re: What is selected?
Yes, I should have been clearer.

See Message 68.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 65 by NosyNed, posted 08-09-2013 9:28 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 70 of 101 (704376)
08-09-2013 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
08-09-2013 8:56 AM


Re: another rather typical misconception
Nonsense.

Advantageous changes don't get selected; seriously disadvantageous changes that prevent reproduction get selected.

Others have already responded to this. I advise you to study the theory you subscribe to. There is positive selection and purifying selection. This is pretty basic, and actually there are ways to compare DNA sequences and see if purifying or positive selection has dominated their evolution.


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jar
Member
Posts: 30996
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 71 of 101 (704377)
08-09-2013 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Genomicus
08-09-2013 9:45 AM


Re: another rather typical misconception
And I responded to them.

see Message 68.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 72 of 101 (704378)
08-09-2013 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
08-09-2013 9:33 AM


Re: another rather typical misconception
Genomicus is also not quite correct for different reasons.

I don't mind being wrong, but I'm interested in where you think my arguments above have been flawed.


This message is a reply to:
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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 73 of 101 (704379)
08-09-2013 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by jar
08-09-2013 9:44 AM


Re: another rather typical misconception
Again, yes, some changes may give some critters an advantage BUT only in a very limited sense.

Citation, please. Positive selection can be weak or it can be strong; so, too, can purifying selection be weak or strong. Where does this "but only in a very limited sense" come into play?

It is only when those critters in a population don't reproduce that a trait gets filter out.

Not necessarily. A trait can be lost from a population through genetic drift, or it can be replaced by another, more advantageous trait (positive selection).


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30996
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 74 of 101 (704380)
08-09-2013 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Genomicus
08-09-2013 9:49 AM


Re: another rather typical misconception
I think I explained already.

A good example is sexual selection. In some animals for example a dominate male may become the only male reproducing and so his genes are the ones that get passed on, but only until that dominate male gets replaced. But in other animals species and even in the case above, other males do "get a little strange" at times and so their genes too remain in the population.

Dominate a population is not synonymous with exclusivity.

And this is important in the example of this thread. Traits that are not seriously advantageous or disadvantageous get passed on. Filtering is only at the extremes.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Genomicus, posted 08-09-2013 9:49 AM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 114 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 75 of 101 (704381)
08-09-2013 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
08-09-2013 9:59 AM


Re: another rather typical misconception
And this is important in the example of this thread. Traits that are not seriously advantageous or disadvantageous get passed on. Filtering is only at the extremes.

Traits that offer neither an advantage or a disadvantage don't all get fixed in the population. This is not the same thing, of course, as merely being passed onto offspring, but fixation (at least the general spreading of the trait throughout much of the population) in a population is hugely important when it comes to the evolution of biological systems. Simply getting the trait passed onto your offspring won't necessarily do the trick since that trait can be lost in the population.

Filtering is only at the extremes.

Beneficial traits can get lost, too.

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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