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Author Topic:   Did the coming of Jesus render the Law of the old testament null and void
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 835 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 61 of 80 (667378)
07-06-2012 2:00 PM


The concept of Law and covenants.

God's ultimate goal is to build an eternity called Heaven. Law is designed to guard this eternity such that only those who are qualified will be allowed to enter. Or else, everyone will be there to screw things to make it hell-like.

Because His Law is designed for guarding Heaven, it is applicable not only to humans but any beings He ever created including angels and perhaps aliens, we don't know how many creations exist out there yet.

Thus His Law will be change for only the sake of humans. His Law will not change anyway.

After being driven out of Eden, humans are incapable of abiding His Law. We are outside of God's realm and Satan is supposed to be the king and god here on earth. Which means as time goes by no humans will be able to get pass the final judgment of His Law to get to the eternitly called Heaven.

Under this situation, how can humans can still be saved (i.e., being brought to Heaven)? Here comes the covenants. A covenant is basically made up of two parts, namely, the Law part and the Faith part. The Law part is designed for humans who are incapable of abiding His Law in full. So the Law part is not completely equivalent to God's Law but partially a reflection of God's Law.

The Faith part is required because the Law part isn't completely equivalent to God's Law. As a result, faith is required for one's salvation. In summary,

To abide by God's Law 100% = you will be in Heaven
To abide by the Law part of a covenant + Faith part of a covenant = you will be in Heaven.

Faith can save because at a certain point of human history God will make a self-sacrifice through Jesus Christ.

As humans keep walking away from God, it is expected that as time goes by there will less and less humans capable of abiding by the Law part in a covenant. That's why at certain points of human history, the covenant requires to be updated.

Each update is usually a decrease in the Law part and an increase in the Faith part. At the same time, the increase of faith may assist humans to abide by the law part in the same covenant. Mosaic Law represents the law part of a covenant and the Jews need to believe in God in order to be able to abide by the Mosaic Law.

At the time when the Faith part increases to 100% with the Law part decreases to 0, it is thus a permanent covenant. It is also called an eternal covenant in the sense that its validity can be kept even beyond the final judgment.

Although the Law part is reduced to zero, there's still a replacement for humans to obey. It is not a "law", instead it is Christ's teaching and commands which you are required to obey.

The fundamental difference between a "law" and a "teaching" is that when you failed the law you are dead. But when you failed a teaching, you can still be saved as long as you are willing to repent. Another difference is since you are no longer under a "law", you thus don't need to be judged by Law on the judgment day. And you don't need to have an accuser such as Moses to the Jews or Satan to the gentiles. However, you are still subject to the judgment of Jesus Christ Himself.


Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by purpledawn, posted 07-09-2012 8:58 AM Hawkins has responded
 Message 63 by jaywill, posted 07-24-2012 12:20 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 62 of 80 (667532)
07-09-2012 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Hawkins
07-06-2012 2:00 PM


Law and Covenants
quote:
God's ultimate goal is to build an eternity called Heaven. Law is designed to guard this eternity such that only those who are qualified will be allowed to enter. Or else, everyone will be there to screw things to make it hell-like.

Because His Law is designed for guarding Heaven, it is applicable not only to humans but any beings He ever created including angels and perhaps aliens, we don't know how many creations exist out there yet.

Thus His Law will be change for only the sake of humans. His Law will not change anyway.


When we look at what is actually written in our translations of the OT, I don't see the goal you claim for God.

quote:
After being driven out of Eden, humans are incapable of abiding His Law. We are outside of God's realm and Satan is supposed to be the king and god here on earth. Which means as time goes by no humans will be able to get pass the final judgment of His Law to get to the eternitly called Heaven.
Again the OT writings do not support what you are saying. The laws were made for humans to follow. These instructions became the basis for the Jewish laws. Talmudic Law

Deuteronomy 30:10-12

if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"

quote:
Under this situation, how can humans can still be saved (i.e., being brought to Heaven)? Here comes the covenants. A covenant is basically made up of two parts, namely, the Law part and the Faith part. The Law part is designed for humans who are incapable of abiding His Law in full. So the Law part is not completely equivalent to God's Law but partially a reflection of God's Law.
The laws given in the OT had nothing to do with being saved as in going to Heaven. They serve the same purpose as our legal system, which also has nothing to do with getting to Heaven.

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. Exodus 24

The Mosaic Covenant is a conditional covenant, but none of the conditions dealt with getting to Heaven. Deuteronomy 30

quote:
The fundamental difference between a "law" and a "teaching" is that when you failed the law you are dead. But when you failed a teaching, you can still be saved as long as you are willing to repent. Another difference is since you are no longer under a "law", you thus don't need to be judged by Law on the judgment day. And you don't need to have an accuser such as Moses to the Jews or Satan to the gentiles. However, you are still subject to the judgment of Jesus Christ Himself.
A law is enforced by a controlling authority.

a (1) : a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority (2) : the whole body of such customs, practices, or rules (3) : common law

A teaching is just something taught.

The laws of the OT weren't a means of salvation and weren't intended as such.

As I showed in Message 51, the Romans did more to lessen the controlling authority of the OT laws than, Jesus or Paul.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Hawkins, posted 07-06-2012 2:00 PM Hawkins has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jaywill, posted 07-25-2012 8:14 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 67 by Hawkins, posted 08-01-2012 10:55 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 68 by Hawkins, posted 08-01-2012 10:58 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 63 of 80 (668779)
07-24-2012 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Hawkins
07-06-2012 2:00 PM



The concept of Law and covenants.
God's ultimate goal is to build an eternity called Heaven. Law is designed to guard this eternity such that only those who are qualified will be allowed to enter. Or else, everyone will be there to screw things to make it hell-like.

I have not been on in a long time.

I agree with this except you are calling the New Jerusalem Heaven. The building is a building together in the divine life and love human beings. The building is really not Heaven. It is the building of people together into the habitation of God in spirit - the church and by extension the New Jerusalem.

Now let me post this and see if I remember how to quote and post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Hawkins, posted 07-06-2012 2:00 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 64 of 80 (668859)
07-25-2012 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by purpledawn
07-09-2012 8:58 AM


Re: Law and Covenants
The revelation of the Law of God and the house of God are progressive and gradually unfolding in the whole Bible. Therefore, the truth of God's building a habitation for God and man is more symbolic in the Old Testament. It in type in the Old Testament. It is in reality in the New Testament.

The typology of God giving the Law in order to secure a dwelling place on the earth is undeniable in the Hebrew Bible. Yet it is seen my in type and in symbolism. The truth of it is there in spite of Purpledawn's failure to notice it.

The Law of Moses was related to God having a people, a city, and a house on the earth. The Law of God was given which God said in keeping it a man may live.

God gave the Law at Mt. Sinai. At that time He also gave the revelation of the TABERNACLE which was a portable dwelling place where God would be on the earth, in the Holy of Holies, amidst His law keeping people. This was the strong relationship between the Law and the dwelling place of God.

The details of the tabernacle were given with exquisite percision. This shows that God is the Designer of this dwelling place. And it shows that it mattered to God most vitally. The tent or tabernacle where God dwelt was the total center of the theocratic covenant people. And in Deutoronomy God prophesies much about the place on earth where His name would be. The idea is that God Himself would have a spot on His earth where He and His people would dwell together.

The tabernacle was the movable dwelling place. A further development was the building of the house or temple of God. This was a more permenant dwelling place of God. The relationship between the Law of God and the House of God is very strong. In Ezekiel there is even a reference to "the law of the house".

What we have to grasp here is the symbolism. God gains a people through the Law. God gains a Good Land, through the Law of God. God gains a city in that Good Land through the Law. And in that city God BUILDS a house as His dwelling place where God and His people meet together.

The People are gained by the Law.
The Good Land is gained by the Law.
The City is gained by the Law.
The Tabernacle is gained by the Law.
Eventually the Temple, the house is gained by the Law.

Therefore, emphatically, the Goal of the Law of Moses was for God to gain a dwelling place. And that is a BUILDED dwelling place. That is a habitation for God on the earth.

Now much of this is more im symbolism in the OT. But the symbolism is entirely powerful and not trivial. To God it was vital. And He spoke of dwelling with His people and in His house. Actually God is aiming at dwelling with man and man dwelling with God.

Actually God is aiming at dwelling IN man. In otherwords God is both building Himself into man and building man into Himself.

The complete reality of this eternal purpose of God is with the New Jerusalem. Hawkins identified the New Jerusalem as Heaven. Actually it is seen in the New Testament coming down OUT of Heaven from God. If it comes down out of heaven then we should not say that it IS Heaven.

"He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (Rev. 3:12,13)

"And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. " (Rev. 21:2)

We can see here that the ultimate "city" in which God and man dwell together in a life union and mingling, is seen in the sign coming down out of heaven. So it is better not to think of the building of the New Jerusalem as the building of Heaven. But it is definitely the building of both the bride and wife of God, of Christ, and the building of the tabernacle of God, the temple of God.

"And I heard a loud voice out of the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His peoples and God Himself will be with them and be their God." (v.3)

That is all I will write in this post. Much needs to be added. But you should see that in BOTH the Old Testament and the New Testament the goal is the dwelling place of God.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by purpledawn, posted 07-09-2012 8:58 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by purpledawn, posted 07-25-2012 10:38 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 71 by Hawkins, posted 08-01-2012 11:05 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 76 by kofh2u, posted 02-22-2013 10:29 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 65 of 80 (668943)
07-25-2012 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jaywill
07-25-2012 8:14 AM


Re: Law and Covenants
quote:
But you should see that in BOTH the Old Testament and the New Testament the goal is the dwelling place of God.
Nicely written, but I don't see what your post has to do with the topic or the points I've made concerning the topic.

My contention is that Jesus did not render the Law of the OT null and void.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jaywill, posted 07-25-2012 8:14 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jaywill, posted 07-26-2012 10:19 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 66 of 80 (668973)
07-26-2012 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by purpledawn
07-25-2012 10:38 PM


Re: Law and Covenants

My last post was in response to, I believe, messages 61 and 62. Partly I responded to Hawkins' equivocation of Heaven and the New Jerusalem, in order to say something about the distinction.

Other comments were in response to your difficulty is seeing some of the points Hawkins made which I thought had validity.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by purpledawn, posted 07-25-2012 10:38 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Hawkins
Member (Idle past 835 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 67 of 80 (669716)
08-01-2012 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by purpledawn
07-09-2012 8:58 AM


Re: Law and Covenants
This is because you failed to grasp what is said. They are however is very much clear to me. The same concept is very much consistent throughout the whole Bible.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by purpledawn, posted 07-09-2012 8:58 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 08-02-2012 6:57 AM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 835 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 68 of 80 (669717)
08-01-2012 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by purpledawn
07-09-2012 8:58 AM


Re: Law and Covenants
===
The laws given in the OT had nothing to do with being saved as in going to Heaven. They serve the same purpose as our legal system, which also has nothing to do with getting to Heaven.
===

With your this conclusion, you are virtually saying that all Jews are not saved without exception! It doesn't make any sense!

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by purpledawn, posted 07-09-2012 8:58 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 69 of 80 (669719)
08-01-2012 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hawkins
08-01-2012 10:58 PM


Re: Law and Covenants
Well, Jews don't have the concept of "saved" similar to Christians.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hawkins, posted 08-01-2012 10:58 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 835 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 70 of 80 (669720)
08-01-2012 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jaywill
07-26-2012 10:19 AM


Re: Law and Covenants
Which part I said can be classified as equivocation? That's a false accusation, unless you are absolutely sure that you are absolutely right. My advice for you is that quit using that wording so lightly.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Hawkins
Member (Idle past 835 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 71 of 80 (669722)
08-01-2012 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jaywill
07-25-2012 8:14 AM


Re: Law and Covenants
=====
The People are gained by the Law.
The Good Land is gained by the Law.
The City is gained by the Law.
The Tabernacle is gained by the Law.
Eventually the Temple, the house is gained by the Law.
=====

Your concept is too abstract to be argued with. To me they are rather hollow words bearing not much concrete meanings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jaywill, posted 07-25-2012 8:14 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jaywill, posted 08-07-2012 8:54 AM Hawkins has not yet responded
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1718 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 72 of 80 (669744)
08-02-2012 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Hawkins
08-01-2012 10:55 PM


Re: Law and Covenants
quote:
This is because you failed to grasp what is said. They are however is very much clear to me. The same concept is very much consistent throughout the whole Bible.
I grasped what you said fine. I disagree that the Bible supports your argument.

This is a debate forum and just saying that the "concept is very much consistent throughout the whole Bible" doesn't mean that it is. You need to show that the concept is consistent throughout the whole Bible and how that concept ties in with the topic; otherwise the thread won't move forward.

Did the coming of Jesus render the Laws of the Old Testament null and void?

quote:
Message 67 With your this conclusion, you are virtually saying that all Jews are not saved without exception! It doesn't make any sense!
I guess I should have said Modern Christian salvation. Salvation has many meanings. In the OT at the time the law was supposedly given, IMO, it was about meaning #3 for the Jews.

3 a: preservation from destruction or failure b: deliverance from danger or difficulty. Strong's 3444)

I already noted in Message 11 that there is a difference between justification and expected behavior. (Romans 4)

My contention is that Jesus did not render the Law of the OT null and void.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Hawkins, posted 08-01-2012 10:55 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 73 of 80 (669973)
08-07-2012 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Hawkins
08-01-2012 11:05 PM


Re: Law and Covenants
Your concept is too abstract to be argued with. To me they are rather hollow words bearing not much concrete meanings.

That is interesting because I intended for the most part to support what you had been writing.

These are not hollow words. But they do need more explanation. Take for example that God gained a people through the Law. Is that too abstract? It was the Law of Moses which separated the Hebrews from the Gentiles. He gained a people THROUGH the Law.

I don't think I need proof texts to "unhollow" these words. But if so consider -

"For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as Jehovah our God is whenever we call upon Him? And what great nation is there that has statues and judgments so righteous as all this LAW which I am setting before you today?" (Deut. 4:7,8)

You see ? The uniqueness of the nation is because they have been given God's law.

So these are not "hollow words" at all.

That is all the time that I have right now. But I can go through each of the other "abstract" ideas you complained about as well. The Law that God gave was central in obtaining the people and the land and the kingdom in the land.

My post was meant to be supportive of yours more so than purpledawn's concept. But that's Okay. I can back up what I wrote regardless.

I don't write things here that I cannot back up, by far, most of the time.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Hawkins, posted 08-01-2012 11:05 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 74 of 80 (669974)
08-07-2012 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Hawkins
08-01-2012 11:05 PM


Re: Law and Covenants
I wrote:

The People are gained by the Law.
The Good Land is gained by the Law.
The City is gained by the Law.
The Tabernacle is gained by the Law.
Eventually the Temple, the house is gained by the Law.

Deuteronomy 4:7,8 is one of many passages showing that the possession of God's Law was the unique factor separating Israel from the other nations.

What about the good land ? It was adherance to the law of Moses which would inable them to dwell on the land. And if they violated God's law they would be vomited out of the land. So the keeping of the law was the factor making it possible for Israel to possess the good land of Canaan.

The entire chapter of Deutoronomy 28 is completely sufficient to prove that keeping the law entitled Israel to the good land and breaking the law would forfeit that priviledge.

Now the city refers to the central location where the temple was. This was to be the place where God would put His name. Three times a year they were to come to the place where God put His name and offer up their sacrifices. This is ALL according to the Law.

Deuteronomy chapter 12 reveals the place where God would put His name. That is the CITY with the TEMPLE. Both matters were instrinsically bound up with the Law of Moses. That was the holding factor - the law.

"But to the place which Jehovah your God will choose out of all your tribes to put His name, to His habitation, shall you seek, and there shall you go.

And there you shall bring your burnt offerings and your sacrifices and you tithes and the heave offering of your hand and your vows and your freewill offerings and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock. And there you shall eat before Jehovah your God, and you and your households shall rejoice in all your undertakings, in which Jehovah your God has blessed you." (Deut. 12:5-6)

The habitation of God is the central place where the offerings of the Levites were to be performed. This worship and feasting was to take place three times a year. They were not to do it anywhere. They had to come to the place where God put His name.

Eventually that was Jerusalem and the temple in Jerusalem. So the law was central to the holding center of the theocratic capital with its temple.

When the law was repeatedly violated and transgressed against, what did the Hebrews lose ? They lost the temple. They lost the city. They lost the land.

Until there should be a recovery of a remnant coming BACK to the law in Nehemiah, Ezra, Haggai, and Zechariah they lost very much. When they did come back to rebuild the walls of the city and the temple, what did they first do ?

Did they build the WALL of the city first ? No indeed. Read it. They understood where the priorities really lay. FIRST - they put the altar in its place. They first restored the Altar for the consecration offerings to Jehovah their God. That was MORE crucial than even the WALL of the city.

The offerings according to the Law held the top priority. The returned exiles realized that if they did not keep the Law with its offerings there was no chance that they would keep the temple, the city, or the good land.

In other words, Babylon's 70 years of captivity had taught some of them a lesson. The Law of God was the holding factor they must give utmost attention to.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Hawkins, posted 08-01-2012 11:05 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
divermike1974
Member (Idle past 2264 days)
Posts: 59
Joined: 02-08-2013


Message 75 of 80 (691266)
02-21-2013 3:40 PM


Gods law is written on the hearts of all humans. It is perfect in every sense and is a message to us of how God behaves. It is a perfect law for perfect things, we humans as imperfect things can only try, dream of or fail to up hold it completely. To try and live by this law alone cant be done by us. To become enslaved by it is as easy as getting addicted to drugs, and just as deadly. Its perfect charms hold untold traps for us if we think we can hold it against another.
Only Jesus was perfect enough for this law. We can only live under Gods grace and when the time comes take our punishment for the deliberate crimes we have committed in breach of it. But i tell you now with every lash tears of joy will still be mine

Replies to this message:
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