Summations Only

Onifre says: Actually I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. What I could say is that the companies that make lubricants (K-Y anyone?) probably sell a lot more to the snipped than the unsnipped. Perhaps you are alluding to the uncleaned being worse when unsnipped. That's a different topic. And we aren't talking condoms either....To me it is a barbaric practice, not at all on the scale of female genital mutilation, but still a crude barbaric practice done only to keep the particular religious leaders in power happy.....

Ringo says: Cute, but a False analogy. No one has ever been born with a handgun. And you surely know that many Canadians have hand guns, rifles & knives. Likewise, at the other extreme, you might hyperbolically argue I argue that it is somewhere in between.I had a biology teacher in high school who had a twin brother. He was asked "What's it like being a twin?" He shrugged & said something like "I dunno - never had any other experience." (P.S. - he was RAZD's homeroom teacher.)Besides, the earliest experiences of infancy having an effect of major psychological proportion down the road are very poorly understood at this time. Things may yet come to light showing vast effects, positive & negative, I might venture to guess.

Jon says: I would ask for documentation, but it doesn't matter here with something like 90% of Americans believing in some kind of a magical Sky God. That huge amounts of this country are being stupid is not an issue I would disagree with. You may want to rethink that. It makes a difference.

CS asks: Because keeping clean is a separate issue that can be easily done.True - there are those parts of the world where there is not clean enough water or whatever, but in those cases to even proceed with this procedure would be very risky, medically.

Ringo says: I think every circumcised boy probably noticed it.Maybe you'd like to talk with Helen Keller?- nate

Jon says: It's simple: they use a knife. They cut off something they don't need to cut off. They alter the body. And, also as an aside, it usually HURTS like hell. It is NOT a medical procedure in the sense that they are not trying to save the patient or help the patient have a better life.It's mutilation, pure & simple.

jar says: Okay. You can have that opinion.What about machine-gunning them to death when they reach 8 years old? Doubt you'd support the parent's right to do that, right?Okay, what about preventing a life-saving blood transfer?Do parents have the right to brainwash their children?There would seem to be a line you are thinking of somewhere - below, it's okay, above it's not. I'm thinking of a line too. Mine seems to be quite a bit lower than yours, but I might be wrong.

Jon says: True, all I have is direct personal experience with anecdotal communications with myself & friends ...worth diddley squat in any science lab. The difficulty in doing such a study is the prejudicial environment of those who are brought up in these religious homes...the statistics are going to be dubious. I would still assert it.Ah well....

Ringo says: The debate in this thread is whether or we should allow it before the boy reaches the age where he can decide for himself (call it "adulthood" if you will). The issue is whether the law should be changed. It's like a slave owner, say in 1842, in an argument on making slavery illegal, arguing that he is allowed to own slaves because he is allowed to.So, you cannot use your point of fact, because that is using your own conclusion of this debate as evidence to support your conclusion.Your sig now says: It should read: No one is saying that a man cannot get himself circumcised.

Jon argues: False analogy. No one driving to church on Sunday is TRYING to get into an accident, with the possible exception of a handful of lunatics. Every circumcision attempt is something they are TRYING to do successfully, with the possible exception of a handful of lunatics.

Jon retorts: ...yes, no one is trying to botch it (except for a handful of lunatics that may possibly get into a position to do that intentionally that I mentioned).It's not apt because no one (other than a handful of the other lunatics mentioned) is trying to cause a small injury to a male infant, causing bleeding and pain, on their way to church.Maybe there's an organization that provides skillful drivers who are trained to sideswipe a telephone pole on the way - who are so skilled they can exact a precisely shaped cut on the infant with 99.98% accuracy - who the driver & spouse have now hired because of their adherence to a religious or cultural habit handed down for thousands of years. I haven't heard of one. Have you?Edited by xongsmith, : Sillyness to the extreme.Edited by xongsmith, : No reason given.

Onifre posits: Anecdotal evidence like mine was.... No, definitely not scientifically demonstratum.;-)
but i can hope you continue to get success.

Hi Buz...glad to be in a conversation with you. Of course not. That was just me reducing the strength of of my point to allow for a very unlikely, but NON-ZERO, probability that there might exist out there some lunatics such as these. Eliminating the anecdotal at the outset, so to speak.Also: Silly me, I thought you would understand the hyperbole here.

Jazzns says: Ah yes - wondering when that other thread might cross over to here.Imagine in the not-too-distant future when infant brain scans can determine right away whether the individual will eventually elect to undergo the long & detailed & emotionally draining process of transgendering.Wait! we can do it NOW when the individual will soon have no memory of being in the wrong body. The parents save the day!??Does the parent have to right to "do what's in the best interest of the child" in this case?Jazzns continues: And I am sure everyone here in this would stipulate that there are limitations. It's just where we each choose to draw the line.

jar reiterates: Have you ever heard of the expression, "Silence is a form of consent"?By remaining aloof in the manner you state above, you are consenting to allow it (someone other than the owner of the penis to choose to do the procedure) to happen.If you'll pardon another use of hyperbole, you know the bit about "when they came for the Jews, I did nothing...when they came for the Gypsies, I did nothing...."?