Summations Only

It occurred to me while discussing circumcision and foreskins on this thread, that some people were putting forward very determined opinions on the topic without actually knowing or bothering to find out what these things really are.Comments about removing moles or unwanted flaps of skin and about trivial processes were telling. I got the impression that what was being visualized was the snipping off of an extra useless little bit of skin in a way that was pretty painless, would heal quickly and completely, and would have no measurable lasting effect on an infant.That's not circumcision.I think we should have another thread on it, and perhaps bring in a bit more science. What the foreskin actually is, for example, and what is (and isn't yet) known about it. We're cutting something off millions of people without even fully understanding its complex functions. It's not a neutral or vestigial feature, and its simple appearance is deceptive.A small percentage of circumcisions are done for genuine medical reasons in all countries. But the mass circumcisions seem to come about from the kind of strange cults that we humans seem to build up without ourselves understanding them. One of the driving forces behind circumcision cults seems to be a desire for control over sexuality. While that's obvious in female genital mutilation, it's less easy to see in the male version. But those who read the paper I posted earlier in the thread will have seen the role that sexuality played in the beginnings of the modern American movement, and I think that the undercurrent's always there.Many doctors still think that the mass circumcisions are carried out for medical reasons, and we keep reading on this thread about parents and their doctor making "medical decisions" on behalf of the child. But they're really cultural decisions, and, some studies show, largely social decisions these days (doing the done thing).Interestingly, two people on this thread have said things that fit descriptions I've read from psychologists of reactions that circumcised Americans frequently have to the subject.There are lots of mysteries in the history and psychology of circumcision. A few years ago, before I happened across a good article about it, it would never have occurred to me that it was such an interesting and important subject, and that it does and always has played such an important part in the world.As a species, we're weird.

SCENE ONE, ACT ONE: Veteran's Hospital in Virginia. Two men in white coats gently seat a visibly distrought marine in a psychiatrist's office.Military Psychiatrist: Thank you gentlemen, you can leave me alone with the patient.[the two caretakers give a delayed look at each other, and with the Psychiatrist' nod, they leave.]Military Psychiatrist: OK, you have nothing to fear here, can we talk? I understand you were brought here, sobbing in a strait jacket. [His eyes drop to the charts] From your records, I see you experienced the Falujah massacre in Iraq. I recall that young teen boys were determined to be . . . 'militant targets', and were gunned down. Their heads exploded from shells like ripe pumpkins dropped from a ten story building. A pretty irrevocable act, eh? Is this the reason for your breakdown?Macho Marine: [wiping his teary eyes] Uhh, no, doc. Noth . . . nothing like that.Military Psychiatrist: Hmmm. Perhaps it was your position in Israel during the civilian massacre with phosphorus weapons. I understand the burning cannot be extinguished, it will burn right down to the bone.Macho Marine: Well, yeah, I saw children as young as two years old get targeted by phosphorus weapons made in the USA. The shrieking from their pain was real loud Doc. Reeeal loud!Military Psychiatrist: Ahh, . . . so THAT barbarity is the cause of your inconsolable despair?Macho Marine: No, . . . no. Like all proportionate americans, I am pretty oblivious to 'foreigner' screams of pain. [leaning to the doc in a whisper] They weren't even christians.Military Psychiatrist: Hmmm. Well then, . . . I have reports that you were apprehended running down the street with an ak-47 screaming . . . uuuh, [looking at his report] , ahhh, here it is . . . "Monsters! Cruel hideous barbarians . . . what have you done!?" Surely this must be from some bloody episode of torture you witnessed at Bagram interrogation center while under US control.Macho Marine: [Regaining his composure] No, no, no Doc! It wasn't like any of those common-place things. You see . . . uhhh . . .Military Psychiatrist: [leaning in] Yes my boy . . . go on . . .Macho Marine: . . . I was at the YMCA this morning. I had a great workout and being a little sweaty, I went to take a shower. There were other men in the stalls. I didn't notice right away, but then suddenly I saw a . . . I saw a . . .Military Psychiatrist: . . . yesss [encouraging with nodding] . . . yesss . . .Macho Marine:[tears welling up in his eyes] . . . a CIRCUMCISED MAN!!! [the brave marine breaks down again. Tears are unextinguishable]Military Psychiatrist: Oh! . . . Dear sweet merciful God in Heaven! [trying his best to steady his nerves] That is just . . . that is just . . . [lower lip quibbles] . . . uhhh, [clenches jaw] . . . HORRIBLE [breaks down in tears, hugging the macho marine]. In forty years . . . I . . . I have . . . heard a lot of terrible stories while a military psychiatrist, but nothing so . . . irrevocably . . . DAMNABLE! I mean, this . . . this is one-million times worse than the atrocities of the holocaust. . . . LITERALLY, one-million times worse.LIGHTS FADE OUT.SCENE TWO, ACT ONE: Confessional at Saint PaulsPriest: Go on my boy, what are your sins . . .Macho Marine: Well, I was in the voting booth and I accidentally selected the democratic candidate and I . . .Priest: [gasps] Vile sinner! Damm you to HELLLLLLLLL!!! . . . Edited by dronester, : consistency

Due to my law background, I was interested in the clash of rights that this topic proposes, and also the topic of circumcision in general.I guess this topic gives a good overview how a circumcision debate can go. Overall, it disappointed me that a good deal of the topic devolved simple yes/no asserting of opinions.
I observed people who are okay with circumcision seemed to mirror the classic ''burden of proof'' debate concerning God. Even though arguments on this were brought up, in the end the opposing side firmly asserted the right of the parents, even when there was a lack of objective reasons to circumcise, it wasn't proven to be negative to them either.After a bit of a cooldown period, I see it fit to make a topic that specifically focuses on the effects and causes of circumcision alone, while explicitly enforcing burden of proof for the practice being positive, negative, or even neutral.

Ah, there were things I wanted to say in a summary. But then I was sidetracked. So I have now decided to make a 1-sentence summary below. Meanwhile, this came up recently with rather serendipitous coincidence (not):An Age of Consent for Circumcision? - Room for Debate - NYTimes.comMy summary:I still think an age of consent is the correct way.

Well this thread is in summation mode, so rather than offering this up for debate, I suppose I'll just leave it here for the participants who would appreciate any new information on the subject.Circumcision Changes Penis Bacteria Ecosystem, May Explain Lower HIV Risk | HuffPost ImpactCircumcision Changes Penis Bacteria Ecosystem, May Explain Lower HIV RiskEdited by Catholic Scientist, : subtitle