I'm not sure I fully understand the point that Obama was making...
quote:If you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.
If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen...
The quote is a little off, and its better to hear it straight. Here's a youtube clip of that part:
Its clear to me that the "that" he was referring to was the infrastructure, i.e. the roads and bridges, and not the business itself.
I agree that we all rely on the infrastructure that the government provides. But we all do that regardless of whether or not we've created a successful business. And businesses pay their far share of taxes towards building that infrastructure. So, its not the infrastructure that builds the business, somebody has to go out and do the work. And the businesses that are successful come from people who are smart and/or work hard.
But I don't see how the fact that infrastructure was used means that it wasn't the smartness and hard work of the person who built the business that allowed the business to emerge.
And I don't see anyone claiming that they built their business without any help from anybody else and without using any of the infrastructure.
"Fair share"? C'mon, CS, you already know this stuff . . .
quote:Over Two-Thirds Of Corporations Pay No Federal Corporate Income Tax
I wanted to talk about what Obama meant, not really defend the ultimate accuracy of everthing I wrote in that post, but; Not all businesses are corporations and not all taxes are federal income taxes.
So, on to the discussion: what was the point Obama was making?
And also lucky, and also lived in the right culture where the technologies were available to enact that vision. If you came up with the idea for Facebook in 1776, you were basically fucked, right?
I'm sure there's plenty of luck involved, but starting the right business in the right place in the right time is part of being smart, imho.
And I don't see anyone claiming that they built their business without any help from anybody else and without using any of the infrastructure.
Really?
Maybe its just me.
I see plenty of business owners who ascribe their success purely to their own hard work, recognizing no contribution but their own, in order to justify evading taxation. Money is what it's all about - when you say "I built my business with no help from anybody" its in order to go on to say "therefore, taxing me is punishing success."
Are they really implying that they didn't need any infrastructure for their business to work?
Well, that's sort of the question, are businesses paying their fair share? Recently the CEO of Corning, Susan Ford, complained to Congress that corporate income taxes are too high. Corning paid a Federal income tax rate of 0%. That's right, they paid nothing. Actually they got money back, so they had a net tax rate of -0.2%.
You are writing "ultimate accuracy" like we are quibbling over symantic nuance. To confirmopposite to your previous assertiontoo many corporations do NOT pay their fair share of taxes.
Yes, but to be extra clear, in addition to unfair reduced taxes, some corporation's success stem from subsidies or on-going corporate welfare. And many corporations use subsidized research and development originally meant for university studies and military projects for their success, e.g., velcro, microwaves, internet, etc
I don't doubt that, but Obama wasn't talking about corporations. He was talking about individuals who have started a successful business.
Do you really think his point had to do with corporate taxes and all that?
If you are not expecting Obama or us to really defend the ultimate accuracy of everything he stated in the video, then it seems you already understand the spirit of his assertions:
But I don't, and that's why I'm asking. If you're not here to help make sense of his point, then gtfo.
I've watched his whole speech many times now. Yes, I agree with you that he was talking about people like me. I started my business with $200. That's all I was willing to put into it. It is now bringing in for me an extra income on average of $1200 to 1500 a week. My business depends heavily on the internet, computers, tablets, smartphones, roads, bridges, and (surprise surprise) the collective knowledge of electronics of those who came before me. At no time have I ever pretended I got here on my own.
What kind of taxes do you pay? Isn't your business contributing to the infrastructure?
That's why I agree with Obama completely.
I don't think that anybody thinks that they could have built their business without any infrastructure. That's why I don't get what he's talking about.
This is why the fox news section with the 2 little girls annoy the hell out of me. Did those girls build the sidewalk? Did those girls invent lemonade? Did those girls grow the wood to build their table?
No, but the sidewalk, lemonade, and wood existed regardless of any business venture they went on, and everybody has access to those already. Its the fact that they were smart and worked hard that made their business.
By the way, before we go on, could you please say in clear and concise words that you concede that when Obama said "you didn't build that" he was referring to the American infrastructure? Just humor me and say it so I can continue to assume you're not a conservative liar.
quote:Its clear to me that the "that" he was referring to was the infrastructure, i.e. the roads and bridges, and not the business itself.
At about 0:46 in that video I linked to, he says it a little differently than the quote I found:
"Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that."
He stumbles right after "business"... he actually says: "Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business... that, you didn’t build that."
He was clearly refering to building the roads and bridges.
Do you really think his point had to do with corporate taxes and all that?
No, I added those points to help you see your general takeaway from his video was correct:
CS writes:
I agree that we all rely on the infrastructure that the government provides.
Okay, so then maybe we can move on to the actual source of my confusion and the point I was making?
quote:I agree that we all rely on the infrastructure that the government provides. But we all do that regardless of whether or not we've created a successful business. And businesses pay their far share of taxes towards building that infrastructure. So, its not the infrastructure that builds the business, somebody has to go out and do the work. And the businesses that are successful come from people who are smart and/or work hard.
But I don't see how the fact that infrastructure was used means that it wasn't the smartness and hard work of the person who built the business that allowed the business to emerge.
And I don't see anyone claiming that they built their business without any help from anybody else and without using any of the infrastructure.
And when you listen to all of obamas speech , you get exactly what the ad is telling you obama meant, which is: You did not build that....You could not have built that without government....It wasn't your smarts that built that....It wasn't your hard work that built that....It was the roads and bridges that government paid for that built that, along with everything in your life that government had something to do with that built that.....That is EXACTLY what obama meant in that speech in its ENTIRETY of context. That is not deceptive or lying. Taking that one quote "you didn't build that" is not out of context. The entirety of the speech is meant to convey that exact meaning.
I think you're partially correct. Obama is emphasizing the role of the government over the working person. But he didn't say that the working person didn't contribute.
When Romney's ad cuts from Obama's speach to that guy going: "Huh? My hands didn't build this!?"... they're spinning Obama into saying that the working person didn't contribute.
Even though that isn't exactly what Obama was saying, I still wonder why he's softening up that mentality. What's in it for those working persons who've built their own businesses? Romney's ad is opening up that line of questioning for the intended audience, and in that sense it is within the context of Obama's speach in total, but it also quotemine-n-spins what Obama actually said into him looking like he's saying something else; so it does take him out of context.
But that's just politics. I'd expect nothing less than this kind of bullshit.
Re: Out of context, the Bible says "there is no God"
And when a business reaps a substantial profit in a marketplace that only exists because of public investment, don't they owe the public something for that?
The small businesses that working people have built themselves don't pay near enough in taxes? How much do they pay and how much should they pay? If Obama's speach was softening those people up for taxes, then Romney's ad is right that they don't want to vote for him.
Obama was talking to individuals who have a business and telling them that they didn't get there on their own because of all the help they had from other people and the government.
Why was he specifically pointing that out?
And don't bother with the copy pasta, please make your points in your own words.
If a small business owner is making huge amounts of money then maybe he should pay more in taxes.
Sure, maybe. How much are they paying and how much should they be paying?
Of course. Obama was talking to individuals who've "got a business". Why would he be pointing that out to those people unless he's implying that they aren't paying their fair share?
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