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Author Topic:   Gun Control
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


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Message 17 of 310 (668972)
07-26-2012 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by crashfrog
07-26-2012 8:58 AM


Us poor scared people
crashfrog writes:
I mean, I get it - you're scared of guns.
I love this You said the other day there was no alpha male business going on here, and yet this smacks of it.
So... I can't recall your stance on Intelligent Design, but if you oppose it, can I assume that's because you fear it?
Like it or not, the vast majority of the civilised world looks at US attitudes towards guns and shakes it's head in disgust, whilst facepalming about how massacre after massacre just get ignored, forgotten. You can keep denying it all you want, but the fact remains that the rest of the western world is more socially advanced than the USA. You guys are living in the 20th century when it comes to things like pro-gun attitudes, anti-homosexual attitudes, anti-social programme attitudes, etc.
I'm ashamed. I wish I could hide my accent better sometimes.
Edited by Briterican, : used a more appropriate word in one instance

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 8:58 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 10:28 AM Briterican has replied
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2012 10:38 AM Briterican has replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 18 of 310 (668974)
07-26-2012 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by ScientificBob
07-26-2012 8:32 AM


Thank you Bob
ScientificBob writes:
I don't post here often and am more a lurker then anything else. But this is a topic I would want to add my 2 cents to as a European looking at gun policies in the US.
ScientificBob writes:
Are any of your surprised at the level of violence and murder with firearms in the US, vastly outperforming any other first world country?
There are more guns in the hands of civilians then there are actual civilians in the US.
I think that at the VERY LEAST, there should be a clear line between defensive weapons and assault/war weapons. Be serious, no civilian needs a Rambo-sized gun.
Frankly, I think it's sickening. Getting a hold of massive weaponry in the US is FAR to easy.
Thank you Bob. Your post summed up very well the astonishment with which Euros view this nonsense.
I agree. It is sickening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ScientificBob, posted 07-26-2012 8:32 AM ScientificBob has not replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 21 of 310 (668977)
07-26-2012 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
07-26-2012 10:23 AM


Cost?
Catholic Scientist writes:
...but the anti-gun crowd never seems to take the cost into account when they're all: "ZOMG, you could buy a grenade launcher, and a mini gun, and 100's of rifles n'stuff!".
Like that makes any difference. I have a friend in Texas that has thousands of dollars worth of Lord of the Rings collectables. He could just as easily have invested that money in that other "hobby", merchant of death. In fact he could sell all that on ebay now and amass quite an arsenal in a matter of days. I'm hoping he doesn't, of course. It's sick to know, however, that you would wholeheartedly support his right to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2012 10:23 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-26-2012 10:35 AM Briterican has replied
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2012 10:46 AM Briterican has not replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


(1)
Message 22 of 310 (668978)
07-26-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
07-26-2012 10:28 AM


Re: Us poor scared people
crashfrog writes:
...if the only thing you can say for your position is that you think these weapons present an unacceptable danger and you can't explain why
Is it really necessary to say why? Common sense perhaps? But if that's not enough for you, or you lack the capacity for it, I'll provide here the same "why" that I provided in the other thread.
Map: Mass shootings in the US since 1990 - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
(please note, ABC is the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, yet another country that is pretty astonished at US gun attitudes)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 10:28 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 10:46 AM Briterican has replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 25 of 310 (668981)
07-26-2012 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
07-26-2012 10:35 AM


Re: Cost?
jar writes:
I don't think you can sell firearms on eBay and use that money to go buy arms.
Probably not, I didn't say you could. I said he could sell his Lord of the Rings crap on ebay.
Keep in mind however that apparently the CO shooter bought most of his ammo online.
Edited by Briterican, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-26-2012 10:35 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 07-26-2012 10:52 AM Briterican has not replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


(1)
Message 26 of 310 (668982)
07-26-2012 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
07-26-2012 10:38 AM


Re: Us poor scared people
Catholic Scientist writes:
But seriously, I don't think our rights need to be adjusted for keeping citizens of other countries happy.
I agree with that statement, but would point out that it completely misses the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2012 10:38 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 28 of 310 (668984)
07-26-2012 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
07-26-2012 10:41 AM


Re: Inclusive
crashfrog writes:
Look, right or wrong, the Constitution is the law. You can't just ignore it.
I agree. I can't argue with that. The Constitution does however have a history of modification. It's almost inevitable, assuming we end up with technology that would allow for handheld laser guns with the power to vaporise a person in one shot (that would be "arms" would it not? and thus you would have the right to own one, or twelve), that at SOME point, this particular part of the Constitution gets re-evaluated.
Nonetheless, valid point crash and I don't dispute it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 10:41 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2012 10:50 AM Briterican has not replied
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 10:52 AM Briterican has replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 33 of 310 (668989)
07-26-2012 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by crashfrog
07-26-2012 10:46 AM


Re: Us poor scared people
crashfrog writes:
I see. So it's not only your fear of guns, it's your fear of embarassment.
I fail to see anything in this sentence that I can make any sense of. What does my alleged fear of embarrassment have to do with Australia having some of the strictest gun restrictions in the world?
I'm not trying to change you guys' collectively fucked-up minds... I'm just providing my opinion. I apologise that it gets your panties in a wad.
As for why I don't think my friend should be able to ebay his toys and go buy guns? - because toys are fun, not deadly. (don't have the patience to reply separately to CS's post asking that).
I like how you guys have attacked me personally on this topic and pretty much anyone dissenting from your view. It is an example of the type of American politics that I'm so pleased to be away from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 10:46 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 10:54 AM Briterican has replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


(1)
Message 36 of 310 (668992)
07-26-2012 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by crashfrog
07-26-2012 10:52 AM


Re: Inclusive
crashfrog writes:
But you can't even convince any of us that it would be worth it. You've barely even tried.
I never intended to. I only intended to express my attitude towards the topic. I'm not a political activist, and I don't live in the states presently. What you do is your own business. All I ever intended to do was add my voice to the many around the world that view the entrenched attitudes on this topic as unfortunate, and backwards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 10:52 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 11:01 AM Briterican has replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


(3)
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Message 38 of 310 (668994)
07-26-2012 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by crashfrog
07-26-2012 10:54 AM


Re: Us poor scared people
crashfrog writes:
I'm simply noting your new justification for disarming Americans: other countries do it, and the people of those countries disapprove of American gun ownership, and as a result when you're in those countries you feel embarrassed to be identified as an American.
There are so many fallacies in this statement... let's see...
I never suggested disarming Americans, therefore I need no justification for something I didn't suggest. What I DID was suggest that the pro-gun attitude is considered insane by many of us outside the US, and a chunk inside as well.
Other countries disarm, and the people of those countries disapprove of American gun ownership - again, it misses the point. The point is not that other countries disapprove, the point is that SO many other countries have moved on from this frontier mentality and have found more a more peaceful society by rejecting the notion that well-armed means well-safe.
...as a result, when you're in those countries you feel embarrassed to be an American - THAT point is close to being right. People in the last week have asked me several times, "So when you were in Texas, could you buy a gun in a bank? in a Wal-Mart? yes? CRAZY!!" - and I simply have to agree with them, it is crazy.
Bowing out now, I know how this will go, each sentence will be nitpicked, and unwarranted conclusions will be reached about what I've said. I'm tired of having to reiterate the fact that I am expressing a personal opinion, and have no desire or interest in changing yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 10:54 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 11:35 AM Briterican has replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 40 of 310 (668997)
07-26-2012 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by crashfrog
07-26-2012 11:01 AM


Re: Inclusive
crashfrog writes:
And it's the fact that you can't explain why that led me to characterize your argument as inchoate and fear-based. You've given no evidence whatsoever that I'm wrong about that.
You know what a PRATT is yes? well, in this case I wouldn't say I've refuted this point 1,000 times, but at least 3. In this thread AND the other thread, I have posted a link to a map of mass shootings in America... far more than you'll find in any other country. THAT is my evidence that there is something wrong with regard to guns and America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 11:01 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2012 11:14 AM Briterican has replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


(2)
Message 60 of 310 (669017)
07-26-2012 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by New Cat's Eye
07-26-2012 11:14 AM


Re: Inclusive
Briterican writes:
I have posted a link to a map of mass shootings in America... far more than you'll find in any other country. THAT is my evidence that there is something wrong with regard to guns and America.
CS writes:
But can you explain what and why is wrong?
As we know it's a hugely complicated matter. I'm not an expert but I'll pretend I am for a minute...
  • Owning arms is enshrined in the Constitution.
  • It's relatively easy to purchase guns in America.
  • Gun manufacture and distribution is big business.
  • As a result of the above, proliferation is huge.
  • In American culture, guns seem to be widely accepted, and in the extreme cases, glamourised and glorified.
  • We've all agreed that there are always going to be crazy people, and you can't always pre-empt them, or identify the threat before it is too late. Despite that, we put them smack in the middle of the above described environment and expect things to just go okay (or in the extreme case seem resigned to these killing sprees as acceptable collateral damage in exchange for the recreational use of guns).
Having said all that...
I hope if you read any part of this post, it will be this part, where I apologise for accusations of a "pro-violence" attitude towards any of you. It's a passionate topic, but that was out of line. Clearly none of you approves of what happened in Colorado.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2012 11:14 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by dronestar, posted 07-26-2012 1:26 PM Briterican has not replied
 Message 80 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2012 2:45 PM Briterican has seen this message but not replied
 Message 124 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-27-2012 3:31 PM Briterican has not replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 69 of 310 (669027)
07-26-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by crashfrog
07-26-2012 11:35 AM


Re: Us poor scared people
crashfrog writes:
Briterican writes:
The point is not that other countries disapprove, the point is that SO many other countries have moved on from this frontier mentality and have found more a more peaceful society by rejecting the notion that well-armed means well-safe.
But that's not true, now is it? The truth is that those countries disarmed because they were safe, not because disarming in the face of armed threats somehow made them safer.
Firearms regulation in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
quote:
Incidents in 1987 and 1996 in which men holding licensed firearms went on shooting sprees and killed on a large scale led to strong public and political demands to restrict firearm use. The result has been the enacting of laws which are among the strictest in the world.[8] The Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988, passed by the Thatcher government in the wake of the Hungerford massacre, made most semi-automatic weapons illegal;
Gun laws of Australia - Wikipedia
quote:
The Port Arthur massacre in 1996 transformed gun control legislation in Australia. Thirty five people were killed and 21 wounded when a man with a history of violent and erratic behaviour beginning in early childhood[14] opened fire on shop owners and tourists with two military style semi-automatic rifles. Six weeks after the Dunblane massacre in Scotland,[9] this mass killing at the notorious former convict prison at Port Arthur horrified the Australian public and had powerful political consequences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 11:35 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 12:56 PM Briterican has replied

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


(2)
Message 75 of 310 (669033)
07-26-2012 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by crashfrog
07-26-2012 12:56 PM


Re: Us poor scared people
Gun control and ownership laws in the UK - BBC News
quote:
FIREARM STATISTICS 2008-09 - UK
  • In 2008-09 firearms were involved in 0.3% or 1 in every 330 crimes recorded by police in England and Wales
  • Firearms were used in 14,250 recorded crimes in 2008-09, an 18% decrease on 2007-08, and the fifth consecutive annual fall
  • Excluding air weapons, firearm offences decreased by 17% to 8,208
    Handguns were used in 4,275 offences during 2008-09, a rise of 2% on 2007-08
  • There was a large fall in the use of imitation weapons, which fell by 41% to 1,511
  • Overall, firearm offences involving any type of injury were down by 41% in 2008-09, from 4,164 in 2007-08 to 2,458
  • There were 39 fatal injuries from crimes involving firearms in 2008-09, the lowest recorded by the police in 20 years.

These things take time.
Edited by Briterican, : These things take time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2012 12:56 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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