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Member (Idle past 4401 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gun Control | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 668 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
It makes more sense to hope he won't use it than to encourage him to use it.
Does it make any sense at all to trust your safety to the care of someone who has already endangered it by pointing a loaded weapon at you?
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Jon Inactive Member
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I would guess there are a lot more accidental deaths by guns versus knives or ropes or unlit stairwells. Your 'guesses' aren't evidence.
There are about 100-500 child deaths a year due to accidental shootings, yes? Umm, . . . hooray for living in a gun society, . . . hooray, hooray, hooray. Please review the relevancy of your fresh-from-the-ass statistics:
quote: quote: quote: In fact, more children die of natural causes than gun deaths and car deaths combined, and that's in a developed country with state-of-the-art medical sciences and technologies:
quote: Main site: http://www.childdeathreview.org/causes.htm. Love your enemies!
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onifre Member (Idle past 3207 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Well as long as folks are walking around armed, I too want to be armed. How many people shot back in Aurora? How many shot back in Virginia Tech? When what's her name (Congress woman) was shot in the face, who shot back? Seems like not many people are "walking around armed" when you need it. Or are they armed just not firing back? What's the point of all these concealed weapons if you badasses aren't gonna defend all of us?
If some asshole pulls his pistol... You'd shit your pants like the rest of us. - Oni
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Jon Inactive Member |
It doesn't matter what is used to commit the murder. All that matters is that there was a murder committed. If increasing accessibility to firearms increases murder rates (by any means), then it does. It not, then it doesn't.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.Love your enemies!
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Modulous Member (Idle past 241 days) Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
It doesn't matter what is used to commit the murder. All that matters is that there was a murder committed. I agree completely. But if someone were to make the specific claim that gun controls don't prevent gun crimes (as criminals will still have guns, say) then the total amount of murder would be irrelevant to that argument. What would be relevant is statistics about gun crimes (or deaths or whatever) specifically.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5
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In what sense was the mass killing Colorado "caused by guns"? in the same way that they were not caused by aeroplanes, which was the distinction I was making. I'm rather obviously not saying that the ownership of guns was the causation factor for Colarado murder. (But it wouldn't surprise me at all if it wasn't a factor. Some of these loonies have a gun fetish with whole arsenals at their disposal - I suspect that one thing feeds the other.)
Why would I agree with that? In the Philippines in 1956, Domingo Salazar was able to murder 15 people - more than in Aurora - with nothing more than a spear and a bolo knife.
Oh come on. 50+ years ago someone in the Philippines ...... How many gun related incidents have there been since then? Are you really saying that knives are as useful or as often used in a mass murder as guns? Which would you choose for the job? The question is not about whether guns control people's minds in a preposterously overstated way but whether there are more deaths because they are prevalent - for a multitude of reasons - than there would have been without them. As deaths increase with gun ownership, the nul hypothesis must be that they are a contributing factor. To say otherwise is denying the most obvious explanation.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5
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This is a fairly well balanced and well argued - but old - article. The conclusions seem fair.
Despite substantial variation in gun control severity and gun ownership levels across U.S. cities, there is no evidence that these have any measurable impact on violence levels, although they do affect the frequency with which guns are used in some kinds of violence. On the other hand, the frequency with which guns are carried may have an impact on robbery which gun ownership levels do not, and gun ownership within special high-risk subsets of the population may have an impact on violence rates which general gun ownership levels do not. Therefore, the significance of the few gun control measures found to be effective should not be overlooked. There is empirical support for some moderate gun controls. I favor a national "instant records check," which would screen for high-risk gun buyers similar to owner license and purchase permit systems, but without the delays and arbitrary administration which sometimes characterizes those controls. The system should cover nondealer transactions as well as dealer sales, and apply to rifles and shotguns, as well as handguns. Also, tighter licensing of gun dealers and increased enforcement of carry laws may be useful. Gun control is a very minor, though not entirely irrelevant, part of the solution to the violence problem, just as guns are of only very minor significance as a cause of the problem. The U.S. has more violence than other nations for reasons unrelated to its extraordinarily high gun ownership. Fixating on guns seems to be, for many people, a fetish which allows them to ignore the more intransigent causes of American violence, including its dying cities, inequality, deteriorating family structure, and the all- pervasive economic and social consequences of a history of slavery and racism. And just as gun control serves this purpose for liberals, equally useless "get tough" proposals, like longer prison terms, mandatory sentencing, and more use of the death penalty serve the purpose for conservatives. All parties to the crime debate would do well to give more concentrated attention to more difficult, but far more relevant, issues like how to generate more good-paying jobs for the underclass which is at the heart of the violence problem. Guns and Violence: A Summary of the FieldLife, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android |
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
If I'm holding a gun and I'm angry, all that my body needs make me do is squeeze a trigger. If I'm holding a knife, I have to get close and drive a blade into their flesh. If I want them dead, then that fact will probably not stop me - but if I'm just very angry and I think I want to kill them or I want to frighten them into thinking I want to kill them, it's much easier for them to end up dead if I have a gun. And if you have a handgun in a locked case, but the 10-inch chef's knife is just in a block in the kitchen, which are you more likely to go for? You're making an argument that on the margin, the presence of a gun enables some number of murders that wouldn't otherwise occur because it's easier to kill with a gun than with a knife. But it's a lot easier to get a knife than a gun. So, it seems to me that it's a wash.
And of course - drive-by shooting. Almost everybody who is killed by a gun is killed in plain view of the killer, usually within eight feet.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1723 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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How many gun related incidents have there been since then? Are you really saying that knives are as useful or as often used in a mass murder as guns? Which would you choose for the job? A gun. But if I couldn't get a gun, I'd use a bomb. If I couldn't get a bomb I'd stab people one by one. Surely if I was driven to murder a bunch of people, and the fact that it's against the law to murder people didn't dissuade me, I doubt I'd be dissuaded by being denied my first choice of weapon.
Some of these loonies have a gun fetish with whole arsenals at their disposal - I suspect that one thing feeds the other. That doesn't seem to be the case with the Aurora shooting; he seems to have acquired his arsenal specifically for the purpose of mass murder.
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Jon Inactive Member
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But if someone were to make the specific claim that gun controls don't prevent gun crimes (as criminals will still have guns, say) then the total amount of murder would be irrelevant to that argument. What would be relevant is statistics about gun crimes (or deaths or whatever) specifically. The best response is to tell them their point is irrelevant. And moving on.Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member
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As deaths increase with gun ownership, the nul hypothesis must be that they are a contributing factor. And where is your evidence to this effect?Love your enemies!
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4484 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined:
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onifre writes: How many people shot back in Aurora? How many shot back in Virginia Tech? When what's her name (Congress woman) was shot in the face, who shot back?
to be fair the movie theater in Aurora and Virginia Tech were both gun free zones. 99% of people with a CHP/CCW are law abiding citizens, who know the consequences of breaking the law while armed (losing your ability to own firearms). I have a concealed carry permit. If I go to a business and they have posted at thier entrance, that they do not allow guns, then I HAVE TO return to my vehicle and hide my firearm, or choose to not enter that business. Unfourtunately criminals are not bound by the laws. BTW the guy (Joe Zamudio) that subdued Jared Loughner (he shot that congress woman Gabrielle Giffords), was carrying at the time he helped stop the shooter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-3GTwalrGY&feature=related You will learn what is needed in the conceled carry class.
Seems like not many people are "walking around armed" when you need it. Or are they armed just not firing back? What's the point of all these concealed weapons if you badasses aren't gonna defend all of us?
the point of my concelead permit is to defend ME, get your own firearm and defend yourself. Drawing your firearm is a serious descion to make, you have to understand that in drawing it you are probably going to have a police visit and possibly even a court date, even to clear your name. You have to consider collateral damage, and range and its it worth it. 9/10 I would still run even while carrying.
You'd shit your pants like the rest of us.
most likely i would.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined:
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They killed hundreds with a campaign of explosives terrorism. How is that "non-violent"? I said that what made the difference was non-violent protest.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 1092 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
crashfrog writes: Then I would suggest that you look further, because this is a chart of gun homicides per 100,000 people - not all homicides per 100,000 people. Glad you mentioned that, that graph struck me the same way. Obviously a nation with greater accessibility to guns would have a greater murder rate by guns. Seems like a tautology. Another thing that struck me. Every nation graphed other than Poland is either part of western Europe, Scandinavia, or a former primarily English-speaking colony of the UK. Is Japan an underdeveloped nation? (not that it would hurt the case being made). Why Poland and not the Czech Republic or Slovenia? Are those nations undeveloped relative to Poland? If one opens up the definition of developed a bit more, like say to include Russia, Estonia (what the hell is going on there anyway?), Slovakia, Republic of China, and South Africa, wouldn't the USA be less an outlier? Was this graph a result of lack of sufficient data or cherry picking or both? If it was more inclusive my guess is it would look a lot more like a Hertzsprung-Russell diagram of stellar evolution than some linear relationship. I need more and better quality data to make a judgement. Quarter ends Aug. 4, will start looking Aug. 5. Maybe it's there, maybe not. Sometimes I post even though I don't really have the time just to let everyone know I'm still here to plague you. As a professional library administrator*, I can't afford to make judgements based on bad or skewed data. *actual scientists and other truth-seekers feel free to replace the term "professional library administrator" with one that best describes your job. Edited by anglagard, : Russia, don't forget Russia - aide to Patton in the movie Patton (1970)Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
Jon writes: And where is your evidence to this effect? Source: Page not found | Research | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health ... index.html Harvard Injury Control Research CenterGuns and Death Homicide 1. Guns and homicide (literature review).We performed a review of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on homicide rates. Major findings: A broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide. Publication: Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. "Firearm Availability and Homicide: A Review of the Literature." Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40. 2. Guns availability and homicide rates across nations.We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. Major findings: Across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded. Publication: Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. "Firearm Availability and Homicide Rates across 26 High Income Countries." Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88. 3. Gun availability and state homicide rates, 1988-1997Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period. Major findings: After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Household Firearm Ownership Levels and Homicide Rates across U.S. Regions and States, 1988-1997." American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993. 4. Gun availability and state homicide rates, 2001-2003Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. Major findings: States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "State-level Homicide Victimization Rates in the U.S. in Relation to Survey Measures of Household Firearm Ownership, 2001-2003." Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64. 5. Homicide followed by suicide in Kentucky.We analyzed data from the Kentucky Firearm Injury Statistics Program for 1998-2000. Major findings: While less than 7% of all firearm homicides were followed by a firearm suicide, in two-thirds of the cases in which a women was shot in an intimate partner-related homicide, the male perpetrator then killed himself with the firearm. Few of these female victims had contact with the Department of Community-based Services. Publication: Walsh, Sabrina; Hemenway, David. "Intimate Partner Violence: Homicides followed by Suicides in Kentucky." Journal of Kentucky Medical Association. 2005; 103:667-70. 6. Homicide in Jamaica.We read the police narratives for every homicide in Jamaica, 1998-2002. Major findings: The murder rate has been increasing steadily in Jamaica, and most of the murders are with firearms. The principal motives are disputes and revenge. Drugs, gangs, and political killings are no longer the main factors associated with murder. Publication: Lemard, Glendene; Hemenway, David. "Violence in Jamaica: An Analysis of Homicides 1998-2002." Injury Prevention. 2006; 12:15-18. SUICIDE 7-8. Guns and suicide (literature review).We performed reviews of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on suicide rates. Major findings: The preponderance of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for youth suicide in the United States. The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling. Most of the disaggregate findings of particular studies (e.g. handguns are more of a risk factor than long guns, guns stored unlocked pose a greater risk than guns stored locked) are suggestive but not yet well established. Publication: Miller, Matt; Hemenway, David. "The Relationship between Firearms and Suicide: A Review of the Literature." Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 1999; 4:59-75. Publication: Miller, Matt; Hemenway, David. "Gun Prevalence and the Risk of Suicide: A Review." Harvard Health Policy Review. 2001; 2:29-37. 9. Gun availability and state suicide rates, 1988-1997 (cross sectional analysis)Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership rates, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and suicide across 50 states over a ten year period. Major findings: After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, across the United States, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of suicide, particularly firearm suicide. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Household Firearm Ownership Levels and Suicide across U.S. Regions and States, 1988-1997." Epidemiology. 2002; 13:517-524. 10. Gun availability and state suicide rates, 1999-2001 (cross sectional analysis)Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide across states, 1999-2001.Major findings: States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm suicide and overall suicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups. It remained true after accounting for poverty, urbanization and unemployment. There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm suicide. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Lippmann, Steven; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Household Firearm Ownership and Rates of Suicide across U.S. States." Journal of Trauma. 2007; 62:1029-35. 11. Gun availability and state suicide rates, 1981-2001 (time series analysis)Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and suicide over time, 1981-2001. Major findings: Changes in the levels of household firearm gun ownership was significantly associated with changes in both firearm suicide and overall suicide, for men, women and children, even after controlling for region, unemployment, alcohol consumption and poverty. There was no relationship between changes in gun ownership and changes in non-firearm suicide. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David; Lippman, Steven. "The Association between Changes in Household Firearm Ownership and Rates of Suicide in the United States, 1981-2002." Injury Prevention. 2006; 12:178-82. 12-13. Gun availability and suicide in the NortheastWe analyzed data on suicide and suicide attempts for states in the Northeast Major findings: Even after controlling for rates of attempted suicide, states with more guns had higher rates of suicide. Case fatality rates ranged from over 90% for firearms to under 5% for drug overdoses, cutting and piercing (the most common methods of attempted suicide). Hospital workers rarely see the type of suicide (firearm suicide) that is most likely to end in death. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Hemenway, David; Azrael, Deborah. "Firearms and Suicide in the Northeast" Journal of Trauma. 2004; 57:626-632. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "The Epidemiology of Case Fatality Rates for Suicide in the Northeast." Annals of Emergency Medicine. 2004; 723-30. 14-15. Gun availability and regional suicide rates (cross sectional analysis)We analyzed the relationship of gun availability and suicide among differing age groups across the 9 US regions. Major findings: Levels of gun ownership are highly correlated with suicide rates across all age groups, even after controlling for lifetime major depression and serious suicidal thoughts. After controlling for divorce, education, unemployment, poverty and urbanization, the statistically significant relationship holds for 15 to 24 year olds and 45 to 84 year olds, but not for 25 to 44 year olds. Publication: Birckmayer, Johanna; Hemenway, David. "Suicide and Gun Prevalence: Are Youth Disproportionately Affected?" Suicide and Life Threatening Behavior. 2001; 31:303-310. Publication: Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. "The Association of Rates of Household Handgun Ownership, Lifetime Major Depression and Serious Suicidal Thoughts with Rates of Suicide across US Census Regions." Injury Prevention. 2002; 8:313-16. 16. Suicide following homicideWe analyzed characteristics of homicides that were followed by suicide and by suicide attempts using data from multiple sites. Major finding: Fifty-nine percent of the men who killed a female intimate partner with a firearm also took their own life. Publication: Barber, Catherine W; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David; Olson, Lenora M.; Nie, C; Schaechter, Judy; Walsh, Sabrina. Suicides and suicide attempts following homicide: Victim-suspect relationship, weapon type, and presence of antidepressants. Homicide Studies. 2008; 12:285-97. 17. Summary of the literature on guns and suicide.This commentary summarized the literature that shows that firearms in the home increase the likelihood of completed suicide, and argued for increased involvement of physicians in recognizing and helping to reduce the problem. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Hemenway, David. Guns and suicide in the United States. The New England Journal of Medicine. 2008; 359:989-991. ACCIDENTS 18. Gun availability and state unintentional firearm death ratesWe analyzed data for 50 states over 19 years to investigate the relationship between gun prevalence and accidental gun deaths across different age groups. Major findings: For every age group, where there are more guns there are more accidental deaths. The mortality rate was 7 times higher in the four states with the most guns compared to the four states with the fewest guns. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Firearm Availability and Unintentional Firearm Deaths." Accident Analysis and Prevention. 2001; 33:477-84. 19. Firearm storage and unintentional firearm death across U.S. statesWe analyzed data from the 2002 Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System that asked questions about guns and gun storage in the home, combined with information on deaths from the National Center for Health Statistics. Major findings: Both firearm prevalence AND questionable storage practices (i.e. storing firearms loaded and unlocked) were associated with higher rates of unintentional firearm deaths. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David; Vriniotis, Mary. "Firearm Storage Practices and Rates of Unintentional Firearm Deaths in the United States." Accident Analysis and Prevention. 2005; 37:661-67. CHILDREN and WOMEN 20. Gun availability and deaths to children.We analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and unintentional gun death, homicide and suicide for 5-14 year olds across the 50 states over a ten year period. Major findings: Children in states with many guns have elevated rates of unintentional gun deaths, suicide and homicide. The state rates of non-firearm suicide and non-firearm homicide among children are not related to firearm availability. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Firearm Availability and Unintentional Firearm Deaths, Suicide, and Homicide among 5-14 Year Olds." Journal of Trauma. 2002; 52:267-75. 21. Gun versus non-gun suicide by childrenWe analyzed data from the Arizona Childhood Fatality Review Team comparing youth gun suicide with suicide by other means. Major findings: Children who use a firearm to commit suicide have fewer identifiable risk factors for suicide, such as expressing suicidal thoughts. Gun suicides appear more impulsive and spontaneous than suicide by other means. Publication: Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew; Barber, Catherine; Schackner, Robert. "Youth Suicide: Insights from 5 Years of Arizona Child Review Team Data." Suicide and Life Threatening Behavior. 2004; 34:36-43. 22. Infant homicidesThis article uses data from various locations to describe the circumstances of infant homicides. Major findings: Guns are almost never used to kill infants. The perpetrator is virtually always caught, and often is the one calling the police. Publication: Fujiwara, Takeo; Barber, Catherine; Schaechter, Judy; Hemenway, David. Characteristics of infant homicides in the U.S.: findings from a multi-site reporting system. Pediatrics. in press 23. Gun availability and deaths to women.We analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and unintentional gun death, homicide and suicide for women across the 50 states over a ten year period. Major findings: Women in states with many guns have elevated rates of unintentional gun deaths, suicides and homicide, particularly firearm suicides and firearm homicides. Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Firearm Availability and Unintentional Firearm Deaths, Suicide, and Homicide among Women." Journal of Urban Health. 2002; 79:26-38. 24. Gun availability and homicides of women across nations.We analyzed the relationship between gun availability and homicides of women with data from 25 high income countries. Major findings: Across developed nations, where gun are more available, there are more homicides of women. The United States has the most firearms and U.S. women have far more likely to be homicide victims than women in other developed countries. Publication: Hemenway, David; Shinoda-Tagawa, Tomoko; Miller, Matthew. "Firearm Availability and Female Homicide Victimization Rates Across 25 Populous High-Income Countries." Journal of the American Medical Women's Association. 2002; 57:100-04. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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