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Author Topic:   Gun Control
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 310 (669643)
07-31-2012 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by NoNukes
07-31-2012 10:37 PM


Re: Democracy 101
If democracy includes allowing a bunch of racists to overthrow the lawfully elected government despite being a minority in Wilmington, then perhaps we needn't consider democracy something to aspire to.
But they weren't allowed to do anything. Unless, of course, are they still in power?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2012 10:37 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2012 11:18 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 310 (669645)
07-31-2012 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Jon
07-31-2012 10:45 PM


Wha??
But they weren't allowed to do anything. Unless, of course, are they still in power?
Does your question make any sense? Is your comment even rational?
The Wilmington Massacre resulted in a successful overthrow of the local government by a minority faction for reasons anyone ought to find repulsive. Neither the state nor the federal government intervened. No punishment or justice of any kind was ever meted out to the murderers. There's a @#$% park in Wilmington named after one of the perps to this day.
Of course all the perps are now dead what with the massacre being finished 100 years ago.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 10:45 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Jon, posted 08-01-2012 9:59 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 310 (669658)
08-01-2012 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by NoNukes
07-31-2012 11:18 PM


Re: Wha??
The Wilmington Massacre resulted in a successful overthrow of the local government by a minority faction for reasons anyone ought to find repulsive.
Why, if they were a minority, were they not overthrown by the majority that supposedly didn't agree with their point of view?
And the purpose of a democracy isn't to appease NoNukes.
Neither the state nor the federal government intervened.
Why?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2012 11:18 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2012 10:21 AM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 274 of 310 (669659)
08-01-2012 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Jon
08-01-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Wha??
Why, if they were a minority, were they not overthrown by the majority that supposedly didn't agree with their point of view?
Are you serious?
You initially asserted that the insurrection was a democratic in action. Now you are asking questions that demonstrate that you knew absolutely nothing about the Wilmington Insurrection/Massacre. I can come up with a few explanations for why you could sport off like this. Perhaps you consider all insurrections against the government to be democratic actions. More likely though, its simply that your position that you must have guns just like the feds in order to live in a democracy is unsupportable.
Following the massacre and the running out of town of black businessmen and the Republican (black and white polititicans), the minority installed their own government the same afternoon.
While blacks were a majority in the town of Wilmington, they were a decided minority in the state of North Carolina. In theory that should not have prevented them from exerting power locally, but that isn't how things worked back in 1898.
Many of the black politicians and business men were unable to return with their rifles because they were dead. But given the disenfranchisement of blacks that occured shortly afterwards by state adoption of Jim Crow laws, the effort would have been futile anyway.
It's no disgrace not to know anything about the Wilmington incident. I only learned about it in law school. The topic isn't included in history books even in North Carolina. But what is pretty hard to understand are your unfounded assertions. You could at least have looked up the topic on Wikipedia.
But why don't you pontificate on the outcome of the majority Wilmington citizens getting their guns and defending themselves against the minority supremacists.
ABE:
NoNukes writes:
Neither the state nor the federal government intervened.
Why?
You cannot possibly be this obtuse. At this point you ought to have a few ideas why the state did not intervene, and anyone familiar with Civil War and Reconstruction history could make some good guesses at why the federal government stayed out of it.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Jon, posted 08-01-2012 9:59 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Jon, posted 08-01-2012 12:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4312 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 275 of 310 (669669)
08-01-2012 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Straggler
07-31-2012 6:07 PM


summation..why? this thread is great.
Why?
to keep the government honest, to keep some power with the people. To live in a way that is completly oppostie to how they were living as a british colony, and to make sure that it never happened again.
Why not (for example) bazookas?
I think they are called RPGs in todays vernacular.
My guess would be, because they did not exist at the time of the writing of the constitution, and by the time they did exist the government was already too tyrannical and the population too passive to fight for the right to have RPGs (aka Bazookas).
I really enjoyed this topic it is a shame it is getting shut down. I am quite suprised that this topic would even exist on such a liberal website, but it was the pleasant sort of suprise. I find it extremely interesting that liberals fully support certain states to regulate firearms (something in the constitution), but deny those same states to regulate marriage (something that is not in the constitution), or science education, or displays of religion; I find the double standard very interesting, and quite illogical.
I hope to continue to participate in interesting threads like this one, thank you EvC.
cheers!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2012 6:07 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 277 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2012 12:21 PM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied
 Message 286 by Modulous, posted 08-01-2012 1:40 PM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied
 Message 295 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-02-2012 4:21 AM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 276 of 310 (669670)
08-01-2012 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Artemis Entreri
08-01-2012 11:50 AM


Re: summation..why? this thread is great.
Hi Chaoticskunk
I really enjoyed this topic it is a shame it is getting shut down. ...
This is standard operating procedure on all threads. It used to be that the software had problems after 300+ posts, and it also helps control for off-topic dilution.
If a topic is deemed interesting, followup threads can be started (ie Gun Control II).
... I am quite suprised that this topic would even exist on such a liberal website, ...
It seems to me that liberals in general are more open-minded than conservatives and have fewer fundamental tenets .... but that would be my liberal bias .
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-01-2012 11:50 AM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 310 (669672)
08-01-2012 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Artemis Entreri
08-01-2012 11:50 AM


Re: summation..why? this thread is great.
I find it extremely interesting that liberals fully support certain states to regulate firearms (something in the constitution), but deny those same states to regulate marriage (something that is not in the constitution), or science education, or displays of religion; I find the double standard very interesting, and quite illogical.
Is it illogical? Truly inexplicable without assuming a double standard?
What if people value certain rights for reasons other than the fact that they are enumerated in the constitution? Maybe some types of regulations (such as who to marry or what claptrap gets taught to their kids as science) are more personal to a given person then whether or not their neighbor gets to wear his gun in a movie theatre. Maybe historically, the state government has abused certain powers and not others. After all, none of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights are applied without limitation, and a few of them don't even apply to the states at all.
People who disagree with your aren't always mentally deficient or illogical. They may simply have different values than you do. Some of them may be considering facts that you don't find important.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-01-2012 11:50 AM Artemis Entreri has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(7)
Message 278 of 310 (669675)
08-01-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Jon
07-31-2012 8:01 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Straggler writes:
The government has access to fighter jets, surface to air missiles, chemical weapons, biological weapons, nukes.... etc. etc.
What weapons do you think the citzenry should have access to?
Jon writes:
Whatever would be necessary to defend against an armed government.
I find this entire argument that a citzenry should be armed to the point that it can remotely hope to match the firwepower of it's own government bewildering, bizzarre and (more to the point) unrealistic to the point of nonsensical.
The US government has a trillion + dollar annual military budget. It has entire research establishments designing cutting edge weaponry to kill people in the most effective ways imaginable. Jets, tanks, submarines, missiles, bombs, chemical and biological capabilities etc. etc. etc. As a military superpower the US has the capability to wipe out whole cities, nations - even continents full of people.
Yet the same people (broadly speaking) who support a superpower strength US military capable of taking on the combined armies of most of the rest of the world simultaneously claim that Joe the Plumber and his buddies need to have the firepower resources to take on this same superpower strength military.
It just isn't possible or realistic. In fact it's just silly.
Of course if you are really concerned about the strength of the government military as compared to that of the US citizenry you could drastically downgrade US government military capabilities.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Jon, posted 07-31-2012 8:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Jon, posted 08-01-2012 12:56 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 291 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-01-2012 6:40 PM Straggler has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 279 of 310 (669676)
08-01-2012 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by NoNukes
08-01-2012 10:21 AM


Re: Wha??
But given the disenfranchisement of blacks that occured shortly afterwards by state adoption of Jim Crow laws, the effort would have been futile anyway.
So they weren't actually as much in the minority as you make them out to be, eh?
At this point you ought to have a few ideas why the state did not intervene, and anyone familiar with Civil War and Reconstruction history could make some good guesses at why the federal government stayed out of it.
Where is your evidence that the people represented a minority point of view?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2012 10:21 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2012 1:05 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 310 (669677)
08-01-2012 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Straggler
08-01-2012 12:46 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Yet the same people (broadly speaking) who support a superpower strength US military capable of taking on the combined armies of most of the rest of the world simultaneously claim that Joe the Plumber and his buddies need to have the firepower resources to take on this same superpower strength military.
Please learn to read. I never stated that I support a 'superpower strength US military'. Nor have I argued that any single individual should hold power equal to that of an entire nation's military forces.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Straggler, posted 08-01-2012 12:46 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2012 1:09 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 290 by Straggler, posted 08-01-2012 3:37 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 310 (669678)
08-01-2012 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Jon
08-01-2012 12:49 PM


Re: Wha??
So they weren't actually as much in the minority as you make them out to be, eh?
I said the supremacists, and whites in general, were in the minority in Wilmington, which is the government that they overthrew. Did I make them out to be anything else?
Stop trying to defend the indefensible, Jon.
Where is your evidence that the people represented a minority point of view?
How about the fact that their faction had lost both the 1894 and 1898 local elections in Wilmington despite the employing intimidation tactics to discourage black voters?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Jon, posted 08-01-2012 12:49 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Jon, posted 08-01-2012 1:19 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 282 of 310 (669679)
08-01-2012 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Jon
08-01-2012 12:56 PM


Re: Democracy 101
Please learn to read. I never stated that I support a 'superpower strength US military'.
Acting condescending looks better when you are right about something. Straggler addressed some other alternatives, like downgrading the US military in his message. He also said "Joe the Plumber and his buddies" and not just a single individual.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Jon, posted 08-01-2012 12:56 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 283 of 310 (669680)
08-01-2012 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by NoNukes
08-01-2012 1:05 PM


Re: Wha??
How about the fact that their faction had lost both the 1894 and 1898 local elections in Wilmington despite the employing intimidation tactics to discourage black voters?
Why didn't that big voting majority stand up against those rag-tag racists, then?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2012 1:05 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 08-01-2012 1:31 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 496 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 284 of 310 (669681)
08-01-2012 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Jon
08-01-2012 1:19 PM


Re: Wha??
Jon writes:
Why didn't that big voting majority stand up against those rag-tag racists, then?
So which group is it that has the right to bear arms? The voting majority or the rag-tag dissidents? Or is it both? Are you advocating the use of arms to solve all political disputes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Jon, posted 08-01-2012 1:19 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Jon, posted 08-01-2012 1:37 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 310 (669682)
08-01-2012 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by ringo
08-01-2012 1:31 PM


Re: Wha??
So which group is it that has the right to bear arms? The voting majority or the rag-tag dissidents? Or is it both?
As I already said:
"All people should be equally empowered."
Are you advocating the use of arms to solve all political disputes?
Peaceful means are always preferred.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 08-01-2012 1:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by ringo, posted 08-01-2012 1:56 PM Jon has replied

  
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