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Author Topic:   2012 Olympics
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 181 (670377)
08-13-2012 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dr Jack
08-13-2012 9:23 AM


Re: America's odd ordering
**
Edited by NoNukes, : Pointless

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dr Jack, posted 08-13-2012 9:23 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 181 (670516)
08-16-2012 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by bluegenes
08-15-2012 9:39 AM


Re: Is the U.S.A. a top sporting culture?
China's size related portion of the 900 total medals given would be about 160, the U.S. about 40, and the U.K. just 8! India's a good example of size alone counting for little when a country is low in per. capita wealth and the culture sectors.
Seriously. Using your argument, both China and India's proportion ought to be 4 times what the US accomplishes, always. But that never happens. They always underperform, at least according to your argument.
The size related argument has some merit, but you well overstate the impact here. It is certainly the case that a straight per capita rating is not appropriate. There are limits to how many Chinese athletes or US athletes can participate in the 100 meter race.
Only the top few athletes in each country get to compete. Only the smallest countries are so tiny that they have a little chance of fielding a few world class athletes in a sport. And there is little point in sending more than your best three individuals or teams.
Taking the values of the medals into account makes sense, with a 3,2,1 scoring method probably the most accurate indicator. That works to your advantage in this Olympics.
I completely agree that a weighting scheme is appropriate, but the scheme does not work to the US's advantage in this Olympics, because no advantage is needed. The US would be first with any rational weighting including 10:2:1, 3:2:1, or 1:1:1. Only an irrational and indefensible weighting that valued bronze medals over gold or silver by huge amounts could have changed this in 2012.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2012 9:39 AM bluegenes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 181 (670599)
08-16-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Straggler
08-16-2012 11:56 AM


Re: Is the U.S.A. a top sporting culture?
It still doesn’t really equate to a dynamic per-capita performance does it?
No, but for reasons that have already been expressed, per-capita performance is a nonsensical metric because of the entry limits in the events.
Are you seriously arguing that there is some size at which a country ought to ashamed at not being able to field an athlete faster than Usain Bolt? That argument is a non-starter. As I recall, the US 4x100 relay team matched the previous record in losing.
Essentially the only people who care about per-capital medal count are people in smaller countries. I would expect that small countries that are at least of a size where they can produce world class athletes in a few sports have a statistical advantage when they only need a few medals to achieve a high medal/head ratio.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 11:56 AM Straggler has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 181 (670621)
08-16-2012 2:49 PM


EU Medal Count!!!
EU puts itself top of Olympic medal table...and Britain is nowhere to be seen | UK | News | Express.co.uk
"EU CLAIMS IT TOPPED THE OLYMPIC MEDAL TABLE...AND BRITAIN IS NOWHERE TO BE SEEN"
quote:
On the agency's website EU Medal Tracker | The European Union in Olympics comparison, it combines the 27 members of the EU into one, meaning that - with 306 medals - it is placed above both the USA and China.
It states: "We count and compare how many medals the EU would win if it took part in the Olympic Games as one team. The European Union is the Winning Team."
Britain, who were in third position at the end of the OIympics with 65 medals in total and 29 golds no longer appear on the table at all. Conservative MEP Marina Yannakoudakis spoke of her outrage at Brussels' attempt to impose a federal identity on nations.
Funniest part of the article...
quote:
The agency denied it was attempting to upset the people of the UK but then disparagingly referred to Britain as 'the island.'
A spokesman said: "We didn't do it just to annoy the Brits. But then we have already received tons of mail from the island."

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Modulous, posted 08-16-2012 3:14 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 181 (670622)
08-16-2012 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Blue Jay
08-16-2012 11:40 AM


Re: Is the U.S.A. a top sporting culture?
Also, I've never quite understood the inclusiveness people use when talking about the Olympics. Americans are always so proud when we win a lot of medals. But, I didn't win any medals, and I'm pretty sure that nothing I did made any difference at all in the final medal count at the Olympics.
That's the way people talk about sports. You also didn't score a single bucket in the last NCAA basketball tournament. But I'll bet plenty of your neighbors, if not you yourself, feel proud of 'their' Wildcats.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Blue Jay, posted 08-16-2012 11:40 AM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 144 of 181 (670637)
08-16-2012 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by bluegenes
08-16-2012 5:52 PM


Re: United States of western Europe vs. the Dream Team.
More to the point, there's nothing wrong with the EU pointing out that the Europeans are the most successful Olympians, because it's true, and it's what I've been pointing out on this thread. The EU could split itself into two parts, and take the first two slots on the medal table.
Are the two parts going to give up all of the extra event entries they get by being actually multiple countries?
For a start, to shake Onifre's confidence, there are five seven footers playing in the NBA, four of them very good. In addition to the Spanish Gasol brothers, who were impressive in the final, there's German superstar Dirk Nowitzki and Italian Andrea Bargnani
I note that the Gasol Brothers were beaten by an American team whose only seven footer was Tyson Chandler.
There are also smaller forwards, like Britain's Luol Deng, and starting guards in the NBA as well.
In other words, more of the same guys that LeBron and Durant punk on a nightly basis already. Sorry, but now that the NBA's opened up to international players, I'm just not all that willing to believe that there are a bunch of Dirk Nowitzkis hanging around in European leagues (which have a sizeable number of American players who cannot make an NBA roster).

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by bluegenes, posted 08-16-2012 5:52 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Modulous, posted 08-16-2012 6:55 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 146 by bluegenes, posted 08-16-2012 7:19 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 181 (670651)
08-16-2012 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by bluegenes
08-16-2012 7:19 PM


Re: United States of western Europe vs. the Dream Team.
I don't think the Spanish, without the help from players from the other four countries I mentioned, really got "punked". They certainly lacked depth, and they were certainly weaker in some areas than the Americans. But the game was hardly one sided.
I did not say they did. I'm commenting on the people you've suggested augmenting the team with. I
I note that a country of 40,000,000 people was beaten by one of 310,000,000 people.
And I'm suggesting that there is not a single player in all of Europe (800,000,000+) the equal of Lebron, Durant, and Carnelo. And I haven't even raised the issue of the American bigs who were saddled with injuries and did not make the trip. Dirk's the best player in Europe and adding him to the Spaniards is a considerable upgrade. I'm not worried about the rest of those guys.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by bluegenes, posted 08-16-2012 7:19 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 181 (670677)
08-17-2012 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straggler
08-17-2012 8:20 AM


Re: Removing restrictions
My point is that simply throwing numbers at an event isn’t how medals are won. Getting medals at an event requires being good at that event, Specifically it involves being better than the other competitors from other nations also competing in that event at that point in time.
It seems a bit inconsistent, in my opinion, to acknowledge this, and then to insist on evaluating medal count on a per capita basis.
It is you who seems to be making the rather bizarre claim that just entering lots of people (or teams) in an event is some sort of statistical route to success because actually being good at that event doesn’t really count for much in terms of winning.
No one has made any such claim. But despite being the best team, the US basketball team was not invincible and could have been beaten on some nights. Having a second team would reduce the odds of the US missing out on a medal.
Further Onifre has clarified what he was talking out re the US wrestling team.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 8:20 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 8:54 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 181 (670855)
08-20-2012 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Straggler
08-20-2012 8:51 AM


Re: Removing restrictions
I don't think anyone is insisting on "strict per capita standards".
Good.
And the point under discussion is the factor being called "sporting culture" (whatever exactly we mean by that).
I agree that this "sporting culture" idea is nonsense. The US has a system for preparing athletes for the Olympics as does every other country that won an appreciable number of medals. But the US system does not pervade the US culture. The system only impacts the few athletes that are identified as having world class talents.
And it is not like the US gov't dumps huge amounts of tax payer money into training athletes. US athletes are not state sponsored.
Given it's population and wealth the US isn't performing particularly impressively.
But this I respectfully disagree with. The US has a higher medal count, using any metric you chose than both large countries four times it size, and small countries. The count includes far more gold medals than anyone else. I think that's impressive.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 08-20-2012 8:51 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Straggler, posted 08-20-2012 12:17 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 165 by Modulous, posted 08-20-2012 2:48 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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