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Author Topic:   The Second Amendment
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 16 of 51 (669820)
08-03-2012 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
08-03-2012 9:20 AM


Time to Brush Up on the Issue
Your statements are common of folk living in countries with strict gun-control laws who know absolutely nothing about the issue as it pertains to the United States.

Do you honestly believe that the reason that the US isn't being converted into a totalitarian regime as we write is because Joe and his buddies have access to rifles and suchlike and that the government is just too scared of these gun wielding protectors of freedom to do what it really wants to do?

Did someone say that?

Do you really think that those countries where we don't have the same attitude to guns are in some terrible danger of sleepwalking into such a regime because we, the citizenry, aren't armed enough to stop the government doing that?

Did someone say that?

The government (or more accurately those who effectively own the politicians) have far more effective and profitable methods of getting the populace to give them what they want anyway.

As long as those methods continue to work.

It will be eliminated by a a mass of gun nuts who decide that the elected government isn't white, homophobic or right wing enough for their tastes......

Where is your evidence that such a mass of gun nuts even exists? Or that their views on sexuality are tied to their beliefs regarding gun ownership?

It is the gun nuts that you guys need to protect democracy from!!!

Spoken like a true outsider who doesn't have a clue in hell what he's talking about.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 08-03-2012 9:20 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 08-03-2012 12:48 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
dronestar
Member (Idle past 14 days)
Posts: 1384
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 17 of 51 (669823)
08-03-2012 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
08-03-2012 9:01 AM


Crash writes:

Is it actually anybody's position that a popular uprising against the US military is doomed to fail because they would deploy nuclear weapons against their own cities?

I do not recall that being anybody's position. Can you provide a source?

Crash writes:

"no ordinary rabble could hope to stand in the face of the modern military"

Was the Branch Davidians "ordinary rabble?"

Crash writes:

"pacifying an entirely population of motivated resistance is simply not something a modern military is able to do"

In another decade or two, what would Palestinians say about that question?

But no need to answer these questions, Staggler's inciteful response has made them moot.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 9:01 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 10:34 AM dronestar has responded

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 18 of 51 (669824)
08-03-2012 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
08-03-2012 9:20 AM


Re: Who Do We Need to Protect Democracy From?
Do you honestly believe that the reason that the US isn't being converted into a totalitarian regime as we write is because Joe and his buddies have access to rifles and suchlike and that the government is just too scared of these gun wielding protectors of freedom to do what it really wants to do?

No, of course not. But again the purpose of the Second Amendment isn't to protect against a despotic government, since a despotic government wouldn't respect any Constitutional right; it's to protect the American people from being disarmed by their legitimate democratic government in the name of "public safety", leaving them defenseless against a future despotic government.

The Second Amendment exists precisely to protect us from well-intentioned disarmament of the American people, as has happened in the UK, Australia, and other countries. Whether or not we need to be protected from that is an open question, and I don't believe that I know enough to say one way or the other, but that's what's different about the US - we have the Second Amendment right to own firearms and you don't. Better? Worse? I don't know. But it's why we can't have the kind of gun control that exists in your country.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 08-03-2012 9:20 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 08-03-2012 12:48 PM crashfrog has responded

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 19 of 51 (669825)
08-03-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by dronestar
08-03-2012 10:17 AM


Was the Branch Davidians "ordinary rabble?"

I don't understand the question, I guess, or it's relevance.

I do not recall that being anybody's position.

Well, ok. What did you mean by "amply demonstrated"?

In another decade or two, what would Palestinians say about that question?

Who knows? Maybe in a decade or two they'll have carved out their own state, because cooler heads than those that now prevail in Israel will realize that the security mechanism needed to pacify the Palestinians will cause more harm than good to Israel itself. And if that's the case, won't the continuing armed rebellion of the Palestinians have gotten them what they wanted?

It's really easy to say that the military has nukes, therefore they always win (this was said a few times in the other thread.) But the question has always been what the military is willing to do, and frequently the force the military is willing to bring against its own citizens and cities is a lot less than their full capability. That's why armed rebellions in Chechnya, Syria, Libya, and other places are succeeding. I don't see how the world post-Arab-Spring can deny the capability of people to successfully contend with their own military government.

Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dronestar, posted 08-03-2012 10:17 AM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by dronestar, posted 08-03-2012 11:46 AM crashfrog has responded

  
dronestar
Member (Idle past 14 days)
Posts: 1384
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 20 of 51 (669829)
08-03-2012 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by crashfrog
08-03-2012 10:34 AM


Drone writes:

Was the Branch Davidians "ordinary rabble?"

Crash writes:

I don't understand the question, I guess, or it's relevance.

i wasn't the one who originally wrote "ordinary rabble" so I cannot help you.

Crash writes:

"pacifying an entirely population of motivated resistance is simply not something a modern military is able to do"

Drone writes:

In another decade or two, what would Palestinians say about that question?

Crash writes:

Who knows? . . .

Well, if that answer is correct, then that tentatively nullifies the assertion that "pacifying an entirely population of motivated resistance is simply not something a modern military is able to do"

Crash writes:

But the question has always been what the military is willing to do, and frequently the force the military is willing to bring against its own citizens and cities is a lot less than their full capability.

This has been demonstrated to be self-evident. Why use a nuclear bomb when rubber bullets or gas can be used? OTOH, the dictator that america had enthusiastically supported for dozens of years, Saddam Hussein, IMO, would have used ANYTHING he had to stay alive and in power.

Crash writes:

That's why armed rebellions in Chechnya, Syria, Libya, and other places are succeeding. I don't see how the world post-Arab-Spring can deny the capability of people to successfully contend with their own military government.

Perhaps. I hate to be a Dora Downer to nit-pick because I would love to read encouraging reports about oppressed people successfully fighting for their liberties and human rights, but your specific examples above are poor because:

Libya's armed rebellions had a "little bit" of help. Syria may be spiraling into a civil war. In what parameters do you see the Chechnya rebels 'succeeding?' Although you didn't state Egypt in your Arab-Spring example, its rebellion has not fully succeeded yet, and is still in danger of becoming a military state.

Thus, your original binary question: "which is it?," Message 14, doesn't really help to make things clearer.

Anyways, besides going off-topic with these complex, yet, unimportant side issues to the thread, I think Straggler's post Message 15 is much more on target to the topic.

Edited by dronester, : clarity

Edited by dronester, : added "...oppressed people..." and attributed posts


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 10:34 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 3:24 PM dronestar has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 14 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 21 of 51 (669831)
08-03-2012 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
08-03-2012 10:28 AM


Re: Who Do We Need to Protect Democracy From?
Straggler writes:

Do you honestly believe that the reason that the US isn't being converted into a totalitarian regime as we write is because Joe and his buddies have access to rifles and suchlike and that the government is just too scared of these gun wielding protectors of freedom to do what it really wants to do?

Crash writes:

No, of course not. But again the purpose of the Second Amendment isn't to protect against a despotic government, since a despotic government wouldn't respect any Constitutional right; it's to protect the American people from being disarmed by their legitimate democratic government in the name of "public safety", leaving them defenseless against a future despotic government.

If the government is despotic, whether it follows a non-despotic disarming government or not, what is going to stop it’s despotism? How exactly does arming Joe and his buddies help prevent the despotic government in question in your view?

Crash writes:

The Second Amendment exists precisely to protect us from well-intentioned disarmament of the American people, as has happened in the UK, Australia, and other countries.

Do you think we in the UK are more at risk from despotic governments than you because we aren’t all armed?

Crash writes:

But it's why we can't have the kind of gun control that exists in your country.

Neither you or I are going to change the 2nd amendment. But we can evidentially debate whether the existing interpretation of the 2nd amendment really has any rational basis or whether it is just a cultural hangover of some sort that doesn’t make sense but is just a fact of life.

In the UK we have all sorts of antiquated laws regarding hanging people for herding sheep across London bridge and suchlike…… That these exist as laws isn’t in and of itself the be-all-and-end-all of whether these laws represent a justifiable position or not.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 10:28 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 3:51 PM Straggler has not yet responded
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 14 days)
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 22 of 51 (669832)
08-03-2012 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jon
08-03-2012 9:58 AM


Re: Time to Brush Up on the Issue
Jon writes:

Did someone say that?

Well you are the one who has made the idiotic link between the right to bear arms and the ability to take on a superpower modern military.

Straggler writes:

What weapons do you think the citzenry should have access to?

Jon writes:

Whatever would be necessary to defend against an armed government.

Message 263

I still don’t know what level of armament you think the US military should have and whether or not you think the US citizenry should match that. Could you enlighten me on this specific point? What exact purpose do you think the citizenry possessing lots of guns achieves?

Jon writes:

As long as those methods continue to work.

Is democracy in the US most at risk from:

1) Economic disparity and the concentration of power that comes with concentration of wealth
2) Those with extreme political views who don’t consider the elected government “American” enough to be legitimate and who think that forcibly overthrowing said elected government is a legitimate way forwards
3) The government fostering an ever greater climate of fear in which civil liberties are ever diminished in the name of national security (whilst the most right wing of gun advocates avidly cheer them on)
4) The government deciding to forcibly impose it’s military might on the populace

Frankly 4) seems like a rather distant possibility compared to the others.

Jon writes:

Where is your evidence that such a mass of gun nuts even exists? Or that their views on sexuality are tied to their beliefs regarding gun ownership?

Am I wrong in thinking that there is a common cause and support between such organisations as the NRA, the Tea Party movement and the religious right in America? I can dig out the known links between these organisations in terms of funding and suchlike if you want – But are you actually denying that there is any link?

Jon writes:

Spoken like a true outsider who doesn't have a clue in hell what he's talking about.

Why Americans think that the question of whether or not prolific gun ownership in society is one that can only be debated as if Americans are somehow unique and evidentially isolated from the experience of the rest of the world baffles me.

It’s a debate board. Nothing you or I say here will change the second amendment. But that doesn’t remotely stop either of us considering whether or not modern interpretations of the 2nd amendment makes any actual sense in the modern world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jon, posted 08-03-2012 9:58 AM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 08-03-2012 2:10 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 244 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 23 of 51 (669834)
08-03-2012 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Straggler
08-03-2012 12:48 PM


Re: Time to Brush Up on the Issue
Hi Straggler,

1) Economic disparity and the concentration of power that comes with concentration of wealth
3) The government fostering an ever greater climate of fear in which civil liberties are ever diminished in the name of national security (whilst the most right wing of gun advocates avidly cheer them on)

Especially when (1) and (3) are currently working together ....

Now it might get interesting if the Tea Poopers ever got in a situation where they were defending their homes from foreclosure by the banks with a little armed resistance to see if their actions fit their mouths ...

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 08-03-2012 12:48 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 51 (669836)
08-03-2012 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by dronestar
08-03-2012 11:46 AM


Well, if that answer is correct, then that tentatively nullifies the assertion that "pacifying an entirely population of motivated resistance is simply not something a modern military is able to do"

I didn't make that assertion.

Why use a nuclear bomb when rubber bullets or gas can be used?

Sure. And you can even get to the point where the military is willing to surrender rather than deploy devastating attacks against the cities they see themselves as having the purpose of protecting.

That's how a modern popular militia can be effective against a modern military, even one with overwhelming force.

Although you didn't state Egypt in your Arab-Spring example, its rebellion has not fully succeeded yet, and is still in danger of becoming a military state.

Sure. Egypt is the one I didn't include because their uprising was largely a nonviolent one; it was more about demonstrations and the unwillingness of the Egyptian military to deploy overwhelming destructive force against unarmed protestors.

Lastly, be mindful of the topic, I think we're going off-topic with these complex, yet, unimportant side points.

Fair enough; let's let it lie.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by dronestar, posted 08-03-2012 11:46 AM dronestar has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 25 of 51 (669837)
08-03-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Straggler
08-03-2012 12:48 PM


Re: Who Do We Need to Protect Democracy From?
If the government is despotic, whether it follows a non-despotic disarming government or not, what is going to stop it’s despotism?

Whatever it takes, hopefully. If what it takes is an armed popular rebellion, such as during the American Revolutionary War, then I can see why the Founders wished that capability to be preserved.

Do you think we in the UK are more at risk from despotic governments than you because we aren’t all armed?

Well, I don't know if you are or not, I guess. I do know that we have the First Amendment; you have one day a week at Speaker's Corner. We have the Second Amendment; you have a greater chance of being mugged in London than in New York. We have a Fourth Amendment right against warrentless search and seizure; you live in a country where every city and town is under 24-hour video surveillance. The government runs most of your channels on broadcast TV. They install missile batteries on your apartment buildings. There aren't a lot of people who look at your country as "the home of the free."

Do you live in under despots? I'm sure you don't think so. I've been to the UK - it's nice, I enjoy it when I'm there. But there's a great deal of bullshit you guys put up with from your government - all in the name of "public safety" of course - that you just couldn't do in the US, literally because of what guys like this would do:

When I go to London, where you literally can't walk around the corner without being videotapped and facially-recognized, I wonder if that black guy up there has the wrong idea. I'm not so sure he does.

But we can evidentially debate whether the existing interpretation of the 2nd amendment really has any rational basis

Look, it says what it says, and there's no way to interpret what it says as being about the right to hunt and shoot skeet. It's hard to see how when it says "people" it really means "state"; that's not how the language is used in any of the rest of the Constitution. I know legal language isn't always the same as the common tongue, but the Founders weren't all lawyers, they were trying to express the principles behind a system of government, not create a set of statutes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Straggler, posted 08-03-2012 12:48 PM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Modulous, posted 08-03-2012 5:33 PM crashfrog has not yet responded
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(2)
Message 26 of 51 (669839)
08-03-2012 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
08-03-2012 3:51 PM


British despotism
Well, I don't know if you are or not, I guess. I do know that we have the First Amendment; you have one day a week at Speaker's Corner.

We have Article 9 (FREEDOM OF THOUGHT, CONSCIENCE AND RELIGION) and 10 (FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION) and 11 FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY AND ASSOCIATION, of the Human Rights Act.

We have the Second Amendment; you have a greater chance of being mugged in London than in New York.

And more chance of being murdered in the USA than in the UK. I'm not sure what the relationship you are trying to show here

Incidentally - New York is one of the strictest States when it comes to gun control (And New York City is apparently moreso), and consequently I believe it has low gun ownership.

We have a Fourth Amendment right against warrentless search and seizure; you live in a country where every city and town is under 24-hour video surveillance.

And we have Article 8 (RIGHT TO RESPECT FOR PRIVATE AND FAMILY LIFE ) whereas you have the PATRIOT act and so on.

The government runs most of your channels on broadcast TV.

We have BBC 1, 2, 3, 4, cbeebies, cbbc, news and parliament (I think that's all of them).

That's not most of our channels. (compare: Sky 1, Sky 2, Sky Atlantic, Sky Poker, Sky Living, Sky Arts1, Sky Arts2 Sky Living it, Sky News, a couple dozen Sky Movies channels, Sky Sports 1-4, Sky Sports News, Sky Sports F1)

And the BBC is a corporation, and is not run by the government. It is merely funded by the people via government taxes. And that isn't written in stone - there are movements to altering the manner in which the BBC is funded.

They install missile batteries on your apartment buildings.

Yes they did. And your government has done some pretty shady things, too.

There aren't a lot of people who look at your country as "the home of the free."

We have, as any country, limited freedom. But it's hardly despotic. And if it is, so too is the US.

But there's a great deal of bullshit you guys put up with from your government - all in the name of "public safety" of course - that you just couldn't do in the US, literally because of what guys like this would do

The US government has done plenty of bullshit in the name of 'national security', literally with the full support of plenty of gun wielding folk.

When I go to London, where you literally can't walk around the corner without being videotapped and facially-recognized

I don't that's literally true at all. But we both agree that there are some valid privacy concerns at stake. Let's hope your security services don't perform any intrusive acts of surveillance (I'm sure they'd never cite 'public safety' out of fear of the gun wielding folk of the USA)!

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 3:51 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Panda, posted 08-03-2012 6:27 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2552 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 27 of 51 (669841)
08-03-2012 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Modulous
08-03-2012 5:33 PM


Re: British despotism
Modulous writes:

That's not most of our channels. (compare: Sky 1, Sky 2, Sky Atlantic, Sky Poker, Sky Living, Sky Arts1, Sky Arts2 Sky Living it, Sky News, a couple dozen Sky Movies channels, Sky Sports 1-4, Sky Sports News, Sky Sports F1)


WHAT?!?
You forgot Dave??!! And QVC!!

And, more seriously, there is Channel 4, Channel 5, ITV1, ITV2, ITV3, ITV4, Yesterday, More 4, Home, E4, 5*, and many more that I CBA to list.

I am starting to think that CrashFrog thinks that the UK still has Bobbies and Bowler hats.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Modulous, posted 08-03-2012 5:33 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 7:27 PM Panda has responded

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 28 of 51 (669842)
08-03-2012 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Panda
08-03-2012 6:27 PM


Re: British despotism
Broadcast TV, guys. Slow your roll. I'm sure you get the same 700 channels on satellite/cable that we do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Panda, posted 08-03-2012 6:27 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Modulous, posted 08-03-2012 7:54 PM crashfrog has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Panda, posted 08-03-2012 9:11 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 29 of 51 (669843)
08-03-2012 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
08-03-2012 7:27 PM


Re: British despotism
Broadcast TV

Only considering terrestrial channels then you are still wrong.

BBC 1, BBC 2, ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5.

2/5 is still not most.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 7:27 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2552 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 30 of 51 (669844)
08-03-2012 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
08-03-2012 7:27 PM


Re: British despotism
crashfrog writes:

Broadcast TV, guys. Slow your roll.


Yes. Broadcast.

All the channels I listed are free to all without satellite or cable.
The terrestrial channels Mod mentions in the post above have been turned off.
All TV channels are now digital - and can be received using any TV aerial.

Put simply: you are completely wrong about the channels broadcast in the UK.
There are many that aren't run by the BBC - and the BBC is not run by the government.

CrashFrog writes:

The government runs most of your channels on broadcast TV.


This is completely and utterly wrong.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 7:27 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by petrophysics1, posted 08-04-2012 9:41 AM Panda has responded

  
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