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Author Topic:   The Second Amendment
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 43 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 31 of 51 (669852)
08-04-2012 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
08-03-2012 3:51 PM


Re: Who Do We Need to Protect Democracy From?
We have a Fourth Amendment right against warrentless search and seizure; you live in a country where every city and town is under 24-hour video surveillance.

If only the British had more guns, they could have shot all the CCTV cameras like the Americans did. That's why there are no CCTV cameras in America. Oh, wait, there are hundreds of thousands of 'em. Clearly Americans need bigger guns.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2012 3:51 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 32 of 51 (669863)
08-04-2012 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dr Adequate
08-04-2012 12:42 AM


Re: Who Do We Need to Protect Democracy From?
I see you've drawn a jeer.

I find the need to jeer statements of fact pretty interesting. Is reality itself being jeered?

It is true that there are more CCTV cameras monitored by police in the UK than anywhere else, but there are also thousands such cameras in cites like Chicago and New York. The fourth amendment is absolutely no bar to installing cameras on public streets.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-04-2012 12:42 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 33 of 51 (669864)
08-04-2012 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Panda
08-03-2012 9:11 PM


Re: British despotism
All the channels I listed are free to all without satellite or cable.

Spoken like a person who has lost so much freedom he doesn't even notice when he's being fucked.

TV in the US is free. How about in the UK?


A television licence is required for each household where television programmes are watched as they are broadcast, irrespective of the signal method (terrestrial, satellite, cable or the Internet).

The licence fee is used almost entirely to fund the BBC's domestic radio, television and internet services.

The current licence costs £145.50 (€174.99) (PER YEAR) for a colour licence and £49.00 (€58.89) for monochrome.

A small portion of the licence fee is used by the BBC to enforce payment,

As it is classified in law as a tax,[56] evasion is a criminal offence.

From:http://en.wikipedia.org/...Television_licence#United_Kingdom

So let's see, you say the BBC is not run by the gov't, but it is inforcing a gov't tax, is funded by a tax, and is picking up/identifying people for a criminal offence.

I'd be more than a little concerned if an "independent company" was doing this in the US.

Back to the topic. The second amendment identifies an individual right to keep and bear arms which predates the US Constitition. Anyone who has read the Federalist Papers knows this.

All Federal firearms regulations are based upon the commerce clause. As such a number of states have passed or are working on passing laws which state that if a firearm is manufactured in a state and never leaves it the Federal gov't and Congress has no right to pass regulations about it. This is intrastate commerce and only the state can regulate that. This is a 10th amendment issue.

In Wyoming there are no regulations about my right to carry a knife, nothing about blade lenght etc.

Wyoming is also a right to carry state which means I can openly carry a firearm nearly anywhere. If asked to leave a store etc. because I have a gun, I must or I will be guilty of trespass.

Last July the Wyoming law changed and now as a resident I have the right to carry concealed just as a person with a permit does. The only reason to get a permit is to have it recognized in other states.

In Wyoming only the state can regulate firearms. This means that no county, city, town etc. can pass laws concerning anything about firearms.

Wyoming also recognizes that I have a right to protect myself, my family, my community, my property and the state. This right is not bestowed on me by gov't as your rights in the UK are. They come from the Creator and as such predate both the US and Wyoming Constitutions. Constitutions may codify this right but they do not give it. A number of laws in Wyoming and its Constitution state this very thing , so don't think I'm some kind of nut.

I have never met a "gun nut" who wanted to force me to do anything or to take my property or force me to pay them money. I have met and seen many in gov't who who think it's perfectly fine to use the force of arms to make me and others comply.

Two days ago I was canoeing on Burnt Lake with my wife. We stopped at a small beach and while taking a piss noticed fresh mountain lion scat on the ground. My wife pointed out fresh front bear paw prints in the muddy sand next to the lake. A big sucker, prints 8-10" across. The area just east of my house is either National forest or part of the Bridger Teton National Wilderness. Now you may wish to walk around there unarmed but I have other plans than being eaten at present.

Last year I was in the Boulder store/bar and saw flyers for info on a resident who was missing. Last seen on the 4 wheel drive to road to Burnt Lake where he was going hiking. He has never been found.

Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 08-04-2012 10:56 AM petrophysics1 has responded
 Message 36 by Jon, posted 08-04-2012 11:27 AM petrophysics1 has responded
 Message 42 by Panda, posted 08-04-2012 6:59 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded
 Message 46 by NoNukes, posted 08-05-2012 2:07 PM petrophysics1 has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2015
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 34 of 51 (669866)
08-04-2012 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by petrophysics1
08-04-2012 9:41 AM


Re: free TV (off topic)
Petrophysics notes:

TV in the US is free.

except for the satellite & cable stations....

Assuming you could call the free TV in the US anything close to real TV, it seems to me more like Beige Establishment Propaganda. You have to submit your mind to a relentless barrage of numbing dumbness after dumbness that subconsciously seep into your dreams and shower singing moments.

It's actually humiliating to take a step back and realize what you've been subjecting your brain to for the last hour or so. Of course it's "free", heh heh.

What's really sad is that commercials work. The people wind up paying for their so-called "free" TV by a roundabout method anyway.

I agree with most of what you said, though, Petro.

I have never met a "gun nut" who wanted to force me to do anything or to take my property or force me to pay them money. I have met and seen many in gov't who who think it's perfectly fine to use the force of arms to make me and others comply.

As Woody says in "Pretty Boy Floyd":

As I travel through this country I meet a lot of funny men.
Some'll rob you with a six-gun, some with a fountain pen.
But as through this life you ramble, as through this life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw drive a family from their home.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 51 (669867)
08-04-2012 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by petrophysics1
08-04-2012 9:41 AM


Re: British despotism
As such a number of states have passed or are working on passing laws which state that if a firearm is manufactured in a state and never leaves it the Federal gov't and Congress has no right to pass regulations about it.

States can write what they want into their laws. The above language is feel good legislation, but most likely futile. Unless the state bars the export and import of guns, and likely they cannot Constitutionally do so, the Interstate commerce Clause (and the Supremacy Clause which prevents states from ignoring federal law) will apply to the gun trade in that state based on the theory that even local gun sales affect the national gun market. I note that the Commerce Clause has been found to apply to food grown at home for personal use.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by petrophysics1, posted 08-04-2012 9:41 AM petrophysics1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by petrophysics1, posted 08-04-2012 3:01 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 51 (669868)
08-04-2012 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by petrophysics1
08-04-2012 9:41 AM


Re: British despotism
I have never met a "gun nut" who wanted to force me to do anything or to take my property or force me to pay them money. I have met and seen many in gov't who who think it's perfectly fine to use the force of arms to make me and others comply.

Ah yes. All these people claiming that gun violence is a threat to democracy seem to forget that the biggest users of gun violence to force compliance are their very own governments—none of them afraid in the least to use that violence on their own citizens whenever it suits them.

Two days ago I was canoeing on Burnt Lake with my wife. We stopped at a small beach and while taking a piss noticed fresh mountain lion scat on the ground. My wife pointed out fresh front bear paw prints in the muddy sand next to the lake. A big sucker, prints 8-10" across. The area just east of my house is either National forest or part of the Bridger Teton National Wilderness. Now you may wish to walk around there unarmed but I have other plans than being eaten at present.

May I ask what you carry and whether it'd be sufficient to protect against a large bear like the one you describe?

Or is a loud bang all it takes to send a bear running?

Jon

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 51 (669871)
08-04-2012 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jon
08-04-2012 11:27 AM


Re: Proper arm selection and dealing with animals
May I ask what you carry and whether it'd be sufficient to protect against a large bear like the one you describe?

Or is a loud bang all it takes to send a bear running?

When by myself or with my wife out hiking, canoeing, prospecting, fishing etc. I usually have my 8mm Mauser with hunting ammo (as you know hunting ammo is far deadlier than the military stuff. I use that for practice. I have a lot I bought surplus years ago for 4.7 cents a round). ( sometimes I'll bring the pump 12 ga with slugs) My sidearm is almost always my Colt 1911 in .45 ACP.

In areas where bears are hunted just them noticing you will get them to leave. Most usually you were down wind and they didn't smell you first. I had to scare them out of my camp sites a number of times. They have so far always left, but maybe they were just not pissed off or in a bad mood. My expierence is with black bears, grizzlies and big browns are another story. I read many stories where they were shot many times but still mauled the shooter and then went off to die.

Stay away from them in National Parks, if you have to run, run downhill, their front legs are shorter and they can't go downhill as well. Bears climb well so if you climb a tree pick a small one they don't do well on these and may just leave you up there.

For mountain lions keep looking around, they like to sneak up on their prey or ambush them. Watch a house cat hunt and you'll know what I mean, they hunt the same.

Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 51 (669872)
08-04-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
08-04-2012 10:56 AM


Re: American despotism
I note that the Commerce Clause has been found to apply to food grown at home for personal use.

Yes I am aquainted with this decision done during the 1930s under that progressive/socialist FDR.

Hopefully it will become known as the Dred Scott decision of the 1930s.

Perhaps it would be good if more people realized that the Federal Gov't believes it has the right to tell you what you can or can't grow for food on your own property. Twisting the meaning of the commerce clause, it reminds me of the pigs in Animal Farm and how they would change the laws by adding a word here and there. I'd love to hear what the Founders would say about that.

Once again we see the threat to our liberty and freedom coming not from the "gun nuts" but from government.

Montana has filed a suit against the Federal Gov't on the use of the Commerce Clause to control guns intrastate. We'll see how that goes.

Edited by petrophysics1, : Add

Edited by petrophysics1, : add '

Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.


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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 39 of 51 (669873)
08-04-2012 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by xongsmith
08-04-2012 10:50 AM


Re: free TV (off topic)
As Woody says in "Pretty Boy Floyd":

As I travel through this country I meet a lot of funny men.
Some'll rob you with a six-gun, some with a fountain pen.
But as through this life you ramble, as through this life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw drive a family from their home.

I like this quote so much I think I'll put it on my face book page.

Thanks

P.S. TV was a lot better 40 years ago. At my place in Wyoming I get no over the air TV channels and will not pay for sat TV (100 channels of nothing to watch). Have many many VHS and DVD movies but usually get on shortwave and chat with someone somewhere else in the US or overseas.

Edited by petrophysics1, : add P.S.


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Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 201 days)
Posts: 2383
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 40 of 51 (669874)
08-04-2012 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by petrophysics1
08-04-2012 2:41 PM


Re: Proper arm selection and dealing with animals
Far be it form me to add to the off-topic banter, but since there's a real chance of you actually encountering a bear...

if you have to run, run downhill, their front legs are shorter and they can't go downhill as well.

This is a myth. Bears run at well over 30mph. You're not going to outrun it, no matter which direction you go, unless it decides to stop chasing you. As I understand it, there's no good way of avoiding a bear attack once it's decided to go for you. Just do whatever you can and hope for the best.

Oh and by the way...

Mutate and Survive


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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 51 (669876)
08-04-2012 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Granny Magda
08-04-2012 4:27 PM


Re: Proper arm selection and dealing with animals
Perhaps I should have been more specific. My friend John who I met on the radio has canoed thousands of miles throughout Northern Ontario. I was the same age as his son and he invited me to go canoe tripping with them. He taugh me a lot and have never known him to have been wrong. As he explained it if they try to run fast down a very steep hill they will go head over heals.

With bears it is best to do what Peachy said in "The Man Who Would Be King"...."brass it out Danny". Don't run, open fire (however in National Parks you can't walk around with a gun)

In support of John and myself I offer the following, this internet posting:

I have researched this over the net, but there is no defining evidence to support, "If you run down hill, you can out-run a bear." but on that note, nothing is said as to how steep of a hill either. But, a bear runs like a horse, both up and down a hills.
A bear will not pursue something that is going down a steep enough grade of hill, because they will sit back on their haunches, to keep from falling forward, going head over heels. A person can even out-run a horse down steep enough of a hill, because of the same reason. A horse will sit back on it's haunches down too steep of a hill.
Source(s):
I have owned an Ovaro Paint and a Blue Appalousa when I lived in Washington State. Neither horse will run flat out down a steep hill no matter what I did to make them do it.
I, on the other hand, will shoot the D*%n bear if it charges.

In the movie "The Edge" watch how the bear goes down a steep slope while chasing Anthony Hopkins, Alec Baldwin and the black guy. He is not running flat out, he is doing what the guy above said.

Game trails of deer and antelope when hitting a steep slope do not go straight up and down. They switchback. When surprising deer and antelope on occasion I have seen them run away going straight uphill, but usually laterally. Never seen one take off straight down a steep slope.

Find a steep hill, get on all fours, and see if you can go faster up or going down.

BTW since I know how to rock climb, I can "outrun" a bear going straight up or down a cliff.

Is this off topic, yeh, but so what.

P.S. When running down a very steep hill you must do it running on your heels, not the balls of your feet, or you too will go head over heels.

Edited by petrophysics1, : add P.S.


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Panda
Member (Idle past 2539 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 42 of 51 (669877)
08-04-2012 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by petrophysics1
08-04-2012 9:41 AM


Re: British despotism
petrophysics1 writes:

From:http://en.wikipedia.org/...Television_licence#United_Kingdom


Your link doesn't think that the BBC is run by the government - so I am wondering why you posted it.
Perhaps you misunderstood what it said.

I expect you would have liked to have linked to a wiki article describing how the government runs the BBC - but you were unable to due to one not existing.

petrophysics1 writes:

So let's see, you say the BBC is not run by the gov't, but it is inforcing a gov't tax, is funded by a tax, and is picking up/identifying people for a criminal offence.


The BBC is not run by the government.
If it was, then you could have shown that it was.
Instead you describe how it is funded.

Oxfam is funded by the public - therefore it is run by the public? No.
And the BBC is not run by the government.

Panda writes:

Put simply: you are completely wrong about the channels broadcast in the UK.
There are many that aren't run by the BBC - and the BBC is not run by the government.


Your attempt to refute this statement has been completely undermined by it being true.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 1777 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 43 of 51 (669878)
08-04-2012 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Straggler
08-03-2012 12:48 PM


Re: Who Do We Need to Protect Democracy From?
Do you think we in the UK are more at risk from despotic governments than you because we aren’t all armed?

But you are not unarmed, you can own rifles and shotguns if you wish for hunting purposes. The only slight difference in the US is the ownership and concealment of handguns.

Making the manufacturing of handguns and their sale illegal does not violate the Second Amendment right to bear arms. Nor does it mean the difference between being able to or not able to stop the US government. Which I believe you'd agree with.

- Oni


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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1981
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


(2)
Message 44 of 51 (669891)
08-05-2012 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Panda
08-04-2012 6:59 PM


Steering back towards the topic
We are veering off topic, here.

Lets stick to the second amendment and the interpretations thereof.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 45 of 51 (669896)
08-05-2012 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by petrophysics1
08-04-2012 6:47 PM


Bears
Sorry admins
Did not see previous msg till after posting. Msg hidden

As he explained it if they try to run fast down a very steep hill they will go head over heals.

Myth. Anyone with actual experience will attest to that
Source
I can find many more sources if needed.

Your idea of running down a steep hill seems kind of meaningless as most places you run into a bear you are not going to have a steep hill within a distance where you can get to a safe place before the bear can reach you. Your advice seems to invite people to be hurt or killed.

The generally accepted advice is bear species dependent. If it is a grizzly or or polar bear and a predation attack lie down and play dead. If it is a non-predation attack or an attack from a black Bear fight back.

I would trust state and provincial DNR's and fish and game dept's over some dude.

As for northern Ontario unless you are in the Hudson and James bay area all you are going to run into are black bears. There is never a situation in which running from a black bear is the best course of action. There are no grizzleys in Ontario. I'd like to know where in northern Ontario where one could use your advice of running down a steep hill. I have spent a fair amount of time in northern Ontario, wabikimi and further north, and do not know of any steep hills that would suffice. In the vast majority of bear encounters your steep hills just do not exist. Also, shooting a bear in Ontario also is not an option. Carrying a shotgun or sidearm on a fishing trip or canoe trip is not allowed. Still in all my times in BWCA, Quetico, Wabikimi and elsewhere I have had a few encounters with black bears. In none of those circumstances was I not able to get the bear to move off without it resorting to an attack. Yes I have moved on to different campsites, but this seems to be a better idea than to invite another encounter.

Oh btw a horse is not a bear and "The Edge" is just a movie.

Edited by Theodoric, : off topic

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
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