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Author Topic:   Does ID predict genetic similarity?
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 34 of 167 (670466)
08-15-2012 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Taq
08-14-2012 12:53 PM


Taq writes:

Once nature seemed inexplicable without a nymph in every brook and a dryad in every tree. Even as late as the nineteenth century the design of plants and animals was regarded as visible evidence of a creator. There are still countless things in nature that we cannot explain, but we think we know the principles
that govern the way they work.

This is obviously true but it seems to me that the fact that there are " principles that govern the way they work" should be construed as an indication in favour of intelligent design. It has taken intelligence to find and understand the principles, which seems to me to suggest that it took intelligence to form the principles in the first place.

Really interesting thread by the way.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Taq, posted 08-14-2012 12:53 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2012 2:37 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 37 of 167 (670472)
08-15-2012 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by bluegenes
08-15-2012 2:37 PM


Re: Make up your minds!
bluegenes writes:

"Intelligent design" seems to be able to predict everything and nothing.

If we are the result of intelligent design the one thing that we would likely predict is the existence of principles.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2012 2:37 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2012 4:18 PM GDR has responded
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2012 5:31 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 43 of 167 (670483)
08-15-2012 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by bluegenes
08-15-2012 4:18 PM


Re: Make up your minds!
bluegenes writes:

Why? Intelligence is notable for improvisation and flexibility.

Just like we see in the evolutionary process, but there are still principles involved.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2012 4:18 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2012 5:41 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 49 of 167 (670489)
08-15-2012 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by bluegenes
08-15-2012 5:41 PM


Re: Make up your minds!
bluegenes writes:

Evolution can't choose to do without them. Why would your intelligent designer necessarily choose there to be principles? What binds him to do so?

It seems to me that anything designed and assembled by humans requires principles. I'm not saying that an intelligent designer would be bound by them, I'm just saying it is what we would expect.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2012 5:41 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2012 6:02 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 50 of 167 (670490)
08-15-2012 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by PaulK
08-15-2012 5:31 PM


Re: Make up your minds!
PaulK writes:

I think that you have that wrong. It should be "If we are NOT the result of intelligent design, we should predict the existence of principles that can account for our existence"

Why?

PaulK writes:

There is nothing in our being designed - as such - that leads us to expect the existence of principles. At least no more than we can simply predict from our own existence.

See my answer to bluegenes.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2012 5:31 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2012 6:15 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 54 of 167 (670513)
08-16-2012 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by bluegenes
08-15-2012 6:02 PM


Re: Make up your minds!
bluegenes writes:

Is that a royal "we"? And why would we expect it? If a designer is designing a world, why is he expected to design any particular type of world?

Human experience has been that it requires principles for us to design something. As it is all we know, then we would expect that if we are the product of intelligent design there would be principles. That isn't to say that there couldn't be another way that we would be unaware of.

bluegenes writes:

Be careful about making observations of the world, and then convincing yourself that an observation (there are principles) is a prediction of the hypothesis "the world is intelligently designed".

We agree that there are principles involved in science including evolution. I also agree that that isn't conclusive proof of anything but we can come to our own conclusions.

It is my belief that seeing as how there are principles and order, and that out of that has come intelligent life that it is more plausible that we have come from an intelligent first cause than not.

bluegenes writes:

That's not how it works. The prediction should be necessary to the hypothesis. The designer would have to be bound to design a world of principles in order for principles to be an I.D. prediction.

If we accept the fact that we are a product of intelligent design then because of human experience it would logical that we would think it likely that there would be certain principles as part of the design. Again, it doesn't mean that we would necessarily be right following that line of thinking.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by bluegenes, posted 08-15-2012 6:02 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by onifre, posted 08-16-2012 1:41 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 68 by bluegenes, posted 08-16-2012 6:50 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 55 of 167 (670514)
08-16-2012 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by PaulK
08-15-2012 6:15 PM


Re: Make up your minds!
PaulK writes:

Because saying that humans popped into existence for no reason seems pretty silly. So, if humans weren't intelligently designed there must be principles that allowed humans to come into existence.

IN that case there would have had to be principles that have existed within the universe prior to human life, which then means that there would have to be principles that existed prior to the formation of the universe.

PaulK writes:

Which seems to be no more than the naive argument that we should infer design from any sufficiently complex system - to be generous to it. It doesn't require much complexity to "operate according to principles". The orbits of the planets for instance - or even a single atom.

That doesn't tell us anything except that there are principles. It tells us nothing about why and how those principles exist.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2012 6:15 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 08-16-2012 1:25 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 78 of 167 (670654)
08-16-2012 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by bluegenes
08-16-2012 7:04 PM


Re: Make up your minds!
bluegenes writes:

All of which misses the point. Neither principles nor a physical universe are predictions of an intelligent design hypothesis.

I've only got a minute so I'll just reply briefly to this. I am not talking absolutes. I'm simply saying this. All things that have been intelligently designed by humans have been based on principles. Ergo, "IF" we start we the assumption that the universe is intelligently designed then we could predict that there are principles involved in the design. No guarantees, but that would be the expectation.

From what I have read about Newton that was his foundational understanding of nature. As a theist he expected order and principles and worked from there.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by bluegenes, posted 08-16-2012 7:04 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 108 of 167 (670861)
08-20-2012 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by bluegenes
08-20-2012 11:13 AM


Re: Make up your minds!
bluegenes writes:

If we found ourselves in a world in which magic seemed to operate freely and there were no rules, that's perfectly compatible with the hypothesis.

But the whole thing is magic. We just don't recognize because magic for us is the norm. We have an existence made up of mindless, probably non-dimensional or one-dimensional particles in which we perceive a 3 dimensional existence, as well as in which we can experience change with intelligent thought. How much more magic can it get?

So we have the magic but within that magic is a set of principles and an order that govern our day to day existence. We sense that in our day to day lives.

From the magic that is our existence it seems reasonable to me that there is an intelligence that is at the root of it. As from the simple observation of this world we can see that out of that magic comes order, then it seems reasonable that we should in our science be able to predict, as did Newton, that we can learn about the principles that govern our day to day existence.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by bluegenes, posted 08-20-2012 11:13 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by bluegenes, posted 08-20-2012 12:29 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 110 of 167 (670881)
08-20-2012 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by bluegenes
08-20-2012 12:29 PM


Re: Make up your minds!
bluegenes writes:

You would need to make the case that intelligent designers of worlds are constrained by some force that obliges them to create worlds with principles.


I don't agree that I do. Isn't that how science works? Someone through reason comes up with a hypothesis that he/she works with to see if they can prove it to be accurate or not. For example, string theory is a hypothesis that science is trying to prove or disprove but it is prediction based on human observation.

As humans we can observe that when we create something there are principles involved. I submit that with our experience as intelligent beings, as a hypothesis it is reasonable to predict, based on the assumption that an intelligent designer exists, that there should be principles involved in the design.

Of course it isn't conclusive, just as the evidence for the hypothesis which is string theory isn't conclusive, but it is a reasonable prediction.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by bluegenes, posted 08-20-2012 12:29 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2012 2:57 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 115 by bluegenes, posted 08-21-2012 4:23 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 139 of 167 (671130)
08-22-2012 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Straggler
08-22-2012 11:51 AM


Re: universal principles
Straggler writes:

There was some loose talk about “principles” being indicative of a designer but when it was pointed out that an absence of such principles wouldn’t necessarily equate to an absence of a designer even these vague proclamations were revoked on the basis that neither the presence nor absence of “principles” really tells us anything about the existence of this hypothetical designer at all.

So I am left asking on what basis, other than human belief in such things, a designer is being postulated here at all?

I don't think that was the point. The OP asked this question.

quote:
What other predictions does ID make or at least claim to make and how do they compare to the predictions that common descent makes?

I think this question is based on the assumption that there is an intelligent designer, not to use the fact that there are principles to prove a designer, but that if we accept that an intelligent designer exists that it could be, as a theory, suggestive that we should expect that there would be principles involved.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 11:51 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 5:38 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 142 of 167 (671179)
08-22-2012 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Straggler
08-22-2012 5:38 PM


Re: universal principles
Straggler writes:

OK. So what is your answer to that question specifically?

That there are principles and order.

Straggler writes:

If we look around us and see these "principles" and then we assume that there is a designer and also assume that this designer will incorporate these "principles" in his design - It is hardly surprising that this exercise in circularity will result in the conclusion that there is a designer who incorporates the observed "principles" in his design.

Certainly with modern scientific knowledge the thinking is circular. However, I have read, but can't find a quote, that Newton anticipated order and/or principles in his science because of his theistic beliefs.

Straggler writes:

But how anyone can think this is a valid exercise in logic or even evidence based reasoning I don't know......

That's funny, I couldn't convince Bluegenes either.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 08-22-2012 5:38 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2012 8:13 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 148 of 167 (671321)
08-24-2012 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Straggler
08-24-2012 8:13 AM


Re: universal principles
Straggler writes:

You can’t meaningfully take the facts, take your preferred explanation, marry the two together on the basis it seems subjectively reasonable to you to do so and then claim that one is a prediction of the other.

I'm not starting with the facts. I'm simply saying that if we start with the acceptance that there is an intelligent first cause, that we should then, as a theory, expect order and principles in our science.

Straggler writes:

Similarly - In order to claim that the existence of “principles” are a necessary logical consequence, and thus prediction, of a designer you need to be able to demonstrate that “principles” are a necessary consequence of a designer and that an absence of such principles would equate to an absence of a designer.

I don't have to demonstrate anything as I am only suggesting that we should expect principles and order when we start with the theory that there is an intelligent first cause, based on our own human experience of design. I am not saying that they are the "necessary consequence of a designer" nor am I saying that the "absence of such principles would equate to the absence of a designer". I'm just saying that it is a reasonable expectation.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2012 8:13 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-24-2012 11:29 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 08-24-2012 1:14 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
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