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Author Topic:   Why would God write a book of lies and why would you worship such a being?
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 25 of 86 (670072)
08-08-2012 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by foreveryoung
08-08-2012 10:25 AM


foreveryoung writes:
You cannot trust that Christ's saving work on your behalf actually happened or is good enough to do the job if you cannot trust the author of statements to that effect.
George says that Jim is an expert juggler. Why do I have to believe George before I can trust Jim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by foreveryoung, posted 08-08-2012 10:25 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 48 of 86 (670153)
08-09-2012 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by foreveryoung
08-09-2012 8:57 AM


foreveryoung writes:
Job did not understand why his world was crumbling around him and his friends told him to curse God. He refused to do so because he knew that he could not trust his own senses when it came to God.
So, did Job trust God because of the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by foreveryoung, posted 08-09-2012 8:57 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 56 of 86 (670701)
08-17-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by foreveryoung
08-16-2012 9:43 PM


foreveryoung writes:
For instance, if the exodus story is a complete fabrication, the legitimacy of the nation of israel is completely destroyed?
The nation of Israel has no legitimacy. The only justification for its existence is its existence. Like an "illegitimate" child, it doesn't matter how it got here but the fact that it is here gives it the right to be here. It's thoroughly improper to use the Exodus story to justify the actions of Zionists and the modern Israeli government.
The question is, "Why would God write a fictional story about an exodus?" The answer is to advertise His ability to keep covenants, knock over walls, etc. Projecting the story onto future events is just a wrong interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by foreveryoung, posted 08-16-2012 9:43 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 08-17-2012 2:51 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 66 of 86 (672799)
09-11-2012 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Hawkins
09-07-2012 2:31 PM


Hawkins writes:
the scriptures must be witnessed and written by authenticated witnesses such as the formally assigned prophets or apostles.
Treasure Island was written by Jim Hawkins with a chapter or two added by Dr. Livesey. How would you authenticate them as witnesses?
Edited by ringo, : Spellng.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Hawkins, posted 09-07-2012 2:31 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 73 of 86 (673310)
09-18-2012 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 1:14 PM


Hawkins writes:
The point is, by the nature of history itself, most part of history cannot be 'proven', it all relies on humans' eye witnessing.
I think you missed my point. I asked, "How would you authenticate them as witnesses?"
Jim Hawkins and Dr. Livesey both claimed to be eyewitnesses of the events in Treasure Island - but both of them were fictional characters created by Robert Louis Stevenson. How do you know that the "eyewitnesses" to the Bible events really existed?
Hawkins writes:
So for something historical, the best "witnessing" is,
1) write a book about it
2) martyr as a direct witness to say the truth
But how do you know that the book and the martyrdom aren't fiction?
Hawkins writes:
If you'd like to say that human history is like a book of "Treasure Island".
I'm not saying that history is like Treasure Island - history can be authenticated. I'm saying that the Bible is like Treasure Island - neither is history because neither can be authenticated. Both claim to be written by eyewitnesses but those claims can't be authenticated.
Hawkins writes:
The question is, since when the book of "Treasure Island" gained 1/3 humans as believers?!
Why do only a minority of people believe the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 1:14 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 3:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 77 of 86 (673334)
09-18-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 3:15 PM


Hawkins writes:
So you swallow whatever authenticated by humans?
As opposed to what? Something that isn't authenticated? Yes, authenticated by humans is better than not authenticated at all.
Edited by ringo, : Speling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 3:15 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 79 of 86 (673351)
09-18-2012 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 4:07 PM


Hawkins writes:
In this case God exists, He can authenticate.
God has not been authenticated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:07 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 82 of 86 (673357)
09-18-2012 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 4:11 PM


Hawkins writes:
ringo writes:
God has not been authenticated.
Do you realize that it speaks of your faith? Or do you realize that this is a statement of faith?
No, it is not a statement of faith. I don't have faith that God doesn't exist. I don't have faith that there is no evidence for the existence of God. I just don't have any evidence for the existence of God. It's a statement of evidence.
By analogy, I don't have any milk in my fridge. It isn't that I don't believe in milk. I just don't have any. It isn't faith that convinces me that I don't have any. Anybody who looks in my fridge can see that I don't have any.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:11 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 86 (673373)
09-18-2012 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 4:33 PM


Hawkins writes:
It is a faith statement based on the assumption that God doesn't exist which you don't know, thus it's your faith
But there is no assumption that God doesn't exist - and there's no assumption that milk doesn't exist. I see no milk. Anybody else who opens the fridge sees no milk. They don't make any assumptions about milk. They just don't see any.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:33 PM Hawkins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:52 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 86 of 86 (673384)
09-18-2012 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Hawkins
09-18-2012 4:52 PM


Hawkins writes:
By the assumption that He exist, He doesn't need your authentication.
So out of the assumption that He doesn't exist, what else can you make the point the "you didn't authenticate Him"?
We're going at the topic backwards here. The premise is that the Bible doesn't have to be "authentic" to have value, that God might use fiction to make a point. If we want to talk about whether the Bible is authentic, this isn't the right place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Hawkins, posted 09-18-2012 4:52 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
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