Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 59 (9025 total)
52 online now:
PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle (3 members, 49 visitors)
Newest Member: JustTheFacts
Post Volume: Total: 883,336 Year: 982/14,102 Month: 385/597 Week: 163/96 Day: 18/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What type of biological life will more than likely be found on other planets?
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 10 of 178 (670498)
08-15-2012 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by onifre
08-15-2012 8:24 PM


Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Are those measures of intelligence or technology? Couldn't something still be intelligent if it was quadrupedal with nothing comparable to hands?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by onifre, posted 08-15-2012 8:24 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by onifre, posted 08-15-2012 9:49 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 17 of 178 (670509)
08-15-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by onifre
08-15-2012 9:49 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Could something with nothing comparable to hands have ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by onifre, posted 08-15-2012 9:49 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 08-16-2012 12:29 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 19 of 178 (670537)
08-16-2012 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by onifre
08-16-2012 12:29 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
But you defined intelligence as ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication.

How does a quadrupedal critter with nothing comparable to hands do those things?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 08-16-2012 12:29 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 8:53 AM jar has responded
 Message 31 by onifre, posted 08-16-2012 11:56 AM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 36 by onifre, posted 08-16-2012 12:34 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 37 by onifre, posted 08-16-2012 12:35 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 21 of 178 (670543)
08-16-2012 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Straggler
08-16-2012 8:53 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
But again, those are more a measure of technology than intelligence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 8:53 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 9:15 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 24 of 178 (670551)
08-16-2012 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
08-16-2012 9:15 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Well again, you have not shown any examples of how that is done so there is nothing I can comment on.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 9:15 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 9:31 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 27 of 178 (670559)
08-16-2012 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Straggler
08-16-2012 9:31 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
No, I simply want to avoid the "any shit that someone can make up" scenario.

Intelligence was defined by oni as "ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication."

Those are pretty specific things. We may consider bird songs as pretty but are they "music"? We may consider the bower birds display pretty but is it "art"? Are there any examples on earth of any other critter doing science, creating mathematical equations or having complex communication capabilities?

Note that what Oni said was inclusive. In Message 8 Oni said:

quote:
For the sake of "drawing a line" lets call intelligence the ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication.

Is there another example of any critter other than man that does all of those things?

Humans do those things for several reasons that are unrelated to intelligence; we live on the surface of our planet and it has a relatively transparent atmosphere that allowed us to see beyond our immediate surroundings; we have hands with opposable thumbs that allow use to develop technology and live in an environment where controlled fire is possible and so began developing technology on a scale significantly different than any other critter that ever lived.

When we talk about art, music, science, math and complex communications were are describing our technology, not our intelligence.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 08-16-2012 9:31 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 08-16-2012 10:12 AM jar has responded
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 9:13 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 30 of 178 (670563)
08-16-2012 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by NoNukes
08-16-2012 10:12 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Okay.

But that is my point.

Oni set a series of conditions to define "intelligent".

I question if the criteria he specified defines intelligence; I believe what he described is based on technology more than intelligence.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 08-16-2012 10:12 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by onifre, posted 08-16-2012 12:02 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 34 of 178 (670588)
08-16-2012 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by onifre
08-16-2012 12:02 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
Yet you said:

quote:
For the sake of "drawing a line" lets call intelligence the ability to create art, music, do science, create mathematical equations and have complex communication.

I contend that we cannot draw such a line when talking about intelligence.

Jimi created using a guitar, wrote using pencil and paper (and sometimes a fountain pen), Michelangelo used tools, bought blocks of quarried stone, paint, scaffolding and his art is totally technology derived.

I'm not sure that we are yet capable of understanding or maybe even recognizing intelligence that is not based on human perceptions, location, environment and technology.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by onifre, posted 08-16-2012 12:02 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by onifre, posted 08-16-2012 12:32 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 44 of 178 (670630)
08-16-2012 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Taq
08-16-2012 3:42 PM


other considerations
There are a bunch of other considerations.

For example several of the Cephalopods are remarkably intelligent and have manipulating arms that are even better and more versatile than the human hand/wrist set up, better vision, a much higher content communications system and are exceptionally intelligent problem solvers but they are short lived and never developed a method of transferring knowledge between generations.

That is extremely important.

So two more criteria we should probably consider is how long the individual lives and whether there is a method of transferring knowledge over generations.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Taq, posted 08-16-2012 3:42 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 47 of 178 (670687)
08-17-2012 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Straggler
08-17-2012 9:13 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
As I said upthread, I'm not sure we would be capable of recognizing intelligence that is different than our own.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 9:13 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 11:22 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 49 of 178 (670718)
08-17-2012 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Straggler
08-17-2012 11:22 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
I really can't much help what you define things as, or your misrepresentation of what I say.

Oni's definition works for humans but not for recognizing intelligence.

And in case you missed it the thread is about alien life forms.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Straggler, posted 08-17-2012 11:22 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Straggler, posted 08-20-2012 8:31 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 51 of 178 (670724)
08-17-2012 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Blue Jay
08-17-2012 3:04 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
Since we only have a single example of life evolving it's all we have to go with.

The vast majority of life here are unintelligent microbial critters. If we look at land critters most are unintelligent plant life. If we look at flying thingies most are unintelligent insects and microbes.

Is there any reason to think that pattern would not hold true universally?

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Blue Jay, posted 08-17-2012 3:04 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 08-17-2012 4:49 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 54 of 178 (670727)
08-17-2012 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taq
08-17-2012 4:49 PM


branching out
So again, looking at the one example of branching out that we have, what we see yet again is still almost all unintelligent.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 08-17-2012 4:49 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 56 of 178 (670763)
08-18-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dogmafood
08-18-2012 6:13 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
If intelligence is a beneficial characteristic (which I think is undeniable) then does it not stand to reason that organisms with more intelligence than their co-habitants will be more likely to survive?

But is that what we see?

Humans are a real outlier but even humans don't seem more likely to survive than cockroaches.

Elephants don't seem more likely to survive than snails.

Dolphins don't seem more likely to survive than clams.

Cephalopods don't seem to be more likely to survive than jellyfish.

Is intelligence really beneficial?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 6:13 PM Dogmafood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 6:40 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33176
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 58 of 178 (670765)
08-18-2012 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dogmafood
08-18-2012 6:40 PM


Re: Hands are Handy
No idea.

If you take 2 humans and one is more intelligent than the other, which is more likely to survive any particular environment?

I have no idea there either. A bunch of the brightest most intelligent folk I knew were dead before they were 25.

Also irrelevant.

Biology and evolution involve populations not individuals.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 6:40 PM Dogmafood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dogmafood, posted 08-18-2012 7:00 PM jar has responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021