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Author Topic:   What type of biological life will more than likely be found on other planets?
Straggler
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Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 20 of 178 (670541)
08-16-2012 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
08-16-2012 8:40 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
jar writes:

How does a quadrupedal critter with nothing comparable to hands do those things?

With it's highly flexible ability to see and communicate using the full EM spectrum....(for example)?

Imagine "music" or "art" or the expression of equations that utilise such abilities.

I dunno. It's all wild speculation. But I'm not sure "hands" are so essential for such intelligence. Although an ability to interact and manipulate the physical world in some sense would seem quite a likely development given it's obvious survival advantage.

"Sight" of some sort seems highly likely given the number of times it has developed independently on Earth.

jar writes:

How does a quadrupedal critter with nothing comparable to hands do those things?

In the same way that a quadraplegic human might?


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 23 of 178 (670550)
08-16-2012 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-16-2012 8:57 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
How so if it's using only it's body with no technological aids?

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 25 of 178 (670554)
08-16-2012 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
08-16-2012 9:16 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
You want me to give a living real example of a hypothetical alien with certain abilities before you are willing to discuss hypothetical aliens with those hypothetical abilities......

Oh.


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 45 of 178 (670682)
08-17-2012 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
08-16-2012 9:52 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
If everything so far discussed constitutes "technology" as far as you are concerned can you give me an example of something that you do think is indicative of "intelligence" rather than "technology"...?

How are we going to recognise intelligence if not in terms of these sorts of abilities?


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 48 of 178 (670697)
08-17-2012 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
08-17-2012 9:56 AM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
But we are talking about intelligence comparable to our own.

When the rest of us use the term “intelligence” we are talking about that which we humans possess and which we can recognise in other beings (alien or otherwise) through the abilities they have.

You for some bizarre reason are insisting that we call this “technology” (whether it actually involves anything that the rest of us would usually call “technology” or not)

Putting aliens to one side for a moment - How do you recognise intelligence (as opposed to “technology”) in other human beings?
Oni’s rather broad description seems as good a starting point as any…

So it is unclear why you feel the need to apply your own meanings to words in order to disagree.


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 84 of 178 (670844)
08-20-2012 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
08-17-2012 2:48 PM


Re: Are those measures of intelligence or technology?
When we talk about ‘intelligence’ in the context of SETI (for example)we are talking about that thing which we humans possess and which allows us to create and use technology.
This is the ‘intelligence’ that is being referred to here and it is this that we are looking for in alien beings.

What exactly you mean by ‘intelligence’ in this context remains pointlessly unclear and you are unlikely to have any meaningful conversation with anyone in this thread on that subject as long as you insist on applying your own mysterious meanings to words.


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(3)
Message 99 of 178 (670932)
08-21-2012 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
08-20-2012 8:39 PM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
We aren't the only animals that exhibit signs of intelligence. Indeed primates are not the only type of animal that exhibits signs of intelligence either.

Wiki on elephants writes:

Elephants are amongst the world's most intelligent species. With a mass of just over 5 kg (11 lb), elephant brains are larger than those of any other land animal, and although the largest whales have body masses twenty-fold those of a typical elephant, whale brains are barely twice the mass of an elephant's brain. The elephant's brain is similar to that of humans in terms of structure and complexity - such as the elephant's cortex having as many neurons as a human brain, suggesting convergent evolution.

Elephants exhibit a wide variety of behaviors, including those associated with grief, learning, allomothering, mimicry, art, play, altruism, use of tools, compassion, cooperation,self-awareness, memory and possibly language.

That intelligence exists in a number of species does suggest that it provides evolutionary advantage at least in some contexts. That is why it evolved. This seems inarguable.

jar writes:

Most everything in the sea eats the intelligent cuttle fish and octopus. Most everything in the jungle eats bonobos and chimpanzees. Elephants don't get eaten too often once they get to be the biggest critter out there. Few things attack crocks except the hippo that is even bigger and with bigger teeth.

But man can, and does, hunt and eat all of these things. And we do it without being particularly strong, without having very impressive teeth or claws etc. We are able to do it because we as a species have taken the intelligence route and run with it to a degree greater than anything else on our planet.

That intelligence taken to a similar or greater degree on another planet somewhere would provide similar advantage seems pretty inarguable. Big teeth will get you so far. But communication and the intelligence to create technology that allows us to shape our environment and compete physically with critters that are far more physically impressive will trump teeth and claws.


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 Message 104 by Blue Jay, posted 08-21-2012 9:30 AM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 106 of 178 (670948)
08-21-2012 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
08-21-2012 9:24 AM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
jar writes:

The topic is "What type of biological life will more than likely be found on other planets?"

And the answer most of us are supplying is something along the lines of: Those that possess attributes which enable them to adapt and survive.

And then intelligence is being forward as an attribute which potentially aids adaption and survival.

I’m not sure why you keep insisting that this is off-topic. It seems very much on topic.


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 110 of 178 (670952)
08-21-2012 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Blue Jay
08-21-2012 9:30 AM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
I don’t know. But I would speculate that a strict predator prey relationship fosters rather niche physical specialisms whereas intelligence is more the result of having to continually adapt and more likely to come about in something that might be both prey and predator. Something with a more mid-range position in the food-chain that encourages adaptability…..

But I may well be talking completely out of my arse here.


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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 119 of 178 (670982)
08-21-2012 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
08-21-2012 12:08 PM


Re: Rare sapience
Why not address it now? Because I think many here think you have the whole intelligence/technology thing completely arse over tit.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 138 of 178 (671091)
08-22-2012 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Blue Jay
08-21-2012 9:30 AM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
BluJ writes:

Furthermore, most of the other notably intelligent animals seem to not be predators.

I was interested to find out that dolphins (amongst the most intelligent of animals) seem to exhibit the very human-like tendency to kill for fun......

Link


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 145 of 178 (671124)
08-22-2012 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Blue Jay
08-22-2012 11:45 AM


Re: Accumulated Intelligence
BluJ writes:

So, maybe omnivores with "aspirations" to become predators are the only type of technology-wielded intelligences we'll see?

I agree with your chain of thought. But it's still pretty speculative on both our parts....


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 154 of 178 (671168)
08-22-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
08-22-2012 6:26 PM


Re: Rare sapience
jar writes:

Looking at the example of other animal we see something entirely different, the animals going to the source. Again looking at the example of the imagined "Mental Society" since going to where an item is is easier than moving the item slowly through trade it's unlikely trade as we know it would develop.

If going to where the item is was always easier than bringing the item to those who wish to utilise it trade would never have developed.

Trade is a result of communication and the ability to reason abstractly. Both of which are aspects of intelligence......


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 156 of 178 (671172)
08-22-2012 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by jar
08-22-2012 6:35 PM


Re: Rare sapience
jar writes:

Of course intelligence played some part, but other intelligent critters did NOT develop trade.

Nor does it seem they have developed the ability to think abstractly to the extent humans have, nor have they taken control of their environments to the extent we have, nor have they developed the technology that allows us to overcome our physical shortcomings etc. etc. etc.

In short no other critters on Earth have developed the level of intelligence exhibited by humans to give us the adaptive advantage that we possess.

That intelliegence provides this adaptive advantage is what myself and others (most comprehensively Bluejay) are saying. That such adaptive abilities would also be useful and thus potentially naturally selected for in other alien environments is also being suggested.

Why you think an attribute that aids adaption isn't likely to evolve more than once in the vastness of the universe remains very unclear.


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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10328
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 158 of 178 (671176)
08-22-2012 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
08-22-2012 7:02 PM


Re: Rare sapience
Do you think that human-like intelligence facilitates adaption to, and control of, the environment to an extent that aids surival?

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 Message 157 by jar, posted 08-22-2012 7:02 PM jar has responded

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