Message 166 of 178 (671193) 08-22-2012 9:53 PM

Reply to: Message 165 by jar 08-22-2012 9:39 PM

But look out the window jar. Animal life, replete with brains, is common.

Message 168 of 178 (671211) 08-23-2012 8:36 AM

Reply to: Message 142 by onifre 08-22-2012 11:09 AM

Yeah, that would be cool.

It certainly looks impossible today. And maybe it is. I like to hope it isn't, though.
I'm sure that to many slaves and peasants that died as such in the past... that some of our current cities and social structures would seem like an impossible dream.
We're certainly not on the downhill slope of things yet by any means. There's a long way to go, and it may prove to be impossible. But we are making some progress, at least, and only building upon that foundation will allow us to continue.

Message 169 of 178 (671213) 08-23-2012 9:06 AM

Reply to: Message 150 by jar 08-22-2012 5:16 PM

There is no "better" -- both work in different ways in different ecologies.

The question to me is not which is better, but whether or not intelligence will be an emergent property of evolution under sufficiently appropriate ecological conditions.

My belief is that it is such a property, that if conditions are suitable on another planet that it will arise.

Enjoy.

Message 171 of 178 (671215) 08-23-2012 9:19 AM

Reply to: Message 169 by RAZD 08-23-2012 9:06 AM

Oddly enough, I'm actually partially coming round to jar's point, once he started explaining it and stopped writing posts that were only two lines long.

The question isn't whether intelligence as such will arise. The question is whether intelligence that gives rise to something we would recognise as a technological civilisation will arise. I think that intelligence in the form of problem-solving abilities and social cunning might well be an expected outcome of animal-like life; but it might require a very contingent and specific set of circumstances to lead to an organism which builds things similar to us.

The universe is very, very big, though - so even the staggeringly unlikely may have happened many times.

Message 172 of 178 (671216) 08-23-2012 9:49 AM

Reply to: Message 171 by caffeine 08-23-2012 9:19 AM

Not only very big but very nearly homogeneous. Is it likely for there to be anything that is truly unique in the universe?

Message 173 of 178 (671228) 08-23-2012 11:21 AM

Reply to: Message 171 by caffeine 08-23-2012 9:19 AM

I agree. If we find aliens that are on par with ourselves, then they're going to have come from an environment similiar to ours, and then, I think they're going to look a fair amount like us as well, i.e. symmetric, mobile, dexterous, intelligent...

I don't think science fiction like Star Wars and Star Trek are that far off with there being several types of humanoids with varying degrees of differences from "human".

Message 174 of 178 (671229) 08-23-2012 11:35 AM

Reply to: Message 166 by ProtoTypical 08-22-2012 9:53 PM

Of the 35 phyla listed by Wikipedia (other sources will give slightly varying numbers), 22 have no brain, 2 have brains in only some species, 2 I wasn't sure about and just nine have brains in all members.

If you take a more generous view of what a brain is and include any cephalisation as a "brain", then about half the 'no brain' phyla switch sides.

So, you see, animals without brains are really not that rare.

Message 175 of 178 (671291) 08-24-2012 8:35 AM

Reply to: Message 174 by Dr Jack 08-23-2012 11:35 AM

Yes. I regretted the question as soon as I submitted it.

Still, would you describe creatures with brains to be uncommon in the world?

Oni's definition of intelligence is an arbitrary point somewhere near the top of the scale, possessed by only one species. If all life has some common ancestor then the seeds of that intelligence should be possessed by all life.

Message 176 of 178 (671295) 08-24-2012 9:08 AM

Reply to: Message 175 by ProtoTypical 08-24-2012 8:35 AM

You mean like the seeds of flight, or the seeds of vitamin c synthesis, or the seeds of coprophagy?

Message 177 of 178 (671296) 08-24-2012 9:18 AM

Reply to: Message 175 by ProtoTypical 08-24-2012 8:35 AM

Nope. Plus, it's independently evolved multiple times so I'd argue we'd expect to see brains in all animal-like life.

Message 178 of 178 (671303) 08-24-2012 9:59 AM

Reply to: Message 176 by caffeine 08-24-2012 9:08 AM

I guess so, which means it doesn't say anything about the probability of it's development only the possibility.

If the elemental building block of intelligence is something like the ability to respond to your environment then it may be much more necessary to life than other elements. Where does intelligence begin?