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Author Topic:   The Even More Awesome Presidential Election Thread
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5983
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 76 of 308 (671753)
08-30-2012 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by caffeine
08-30-2012 3:29 AM


Re: More semantics from NoNukes...YAWN
. . . of the Republican party nowadays, but it's also the party you join if your political hero is Ayn Rand - one of the most militant atheists the right has ever produced.
Such as Paul Ryan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_ryan:
quote:
Political philosophy
At a Washington, D.C. gathering celebrating what would have been Ayn Rand's 100th birthday, Ryan credited Rand as inspiring him to get involved in public service. In a 2005 speech at The Atlas Society, he said he grew up reading Rand, and that her books taught him about his value system and beliefs. Ryan tried to get all of the congressional interns in his office to read Rand's writing. He also gave copies of her novel Atlas Shrugged to his staff as Christmas presents.
In 2009, Ryan said "What's unique about what's happening today in government, in the world, in America, is that it's as if we're living in an Ayn Rand novel right now. I think Ayn Rand did the best job of anybody to build a moral case of capitalism, and that morality of capitalism is under assault."
In April 2012, after receiving criticism from Georgetown University faculty members on his budget plan, Ryan rejected Rand's philosophy as an atheistic one, saying it "reduces human interactions down to mere contracts." He also called the reports of his adherence to Rand's views an "urban legend" and stated that he was deeply influenced by his Roman Catholic faith and by Thomas Aquinas. Yaron Brook, president of the Ayn Rand Institute, maintains that Ryan is not a Rand disciple, and that some of his proposals do not follow Rand's philosophy of limited government; Brook refers to Ryan as a "fiscal moderate."
In August 2012 after Romney chose him as his running mate, the Associated Press published a story saying that while the Tea Party movement had wanted a nominee other than Romney, it had gotten "one of its ideological heroes" in the Vice Presidential slot. According to AP, he supports their belief in individual rights, distrust of big government, and respect for America's founding fathers.
Ryan rejected Rand's philosophy as an atheistic one, saying it reduces human interactions down to mere contracts. He also called the reports of his adherence to Rand's views an urban legend' and stated that he was deeply influenced by his Roman Catholic faith and by Thomas Aquinas." Yeah, right! (ha-ha-ha!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by caffeine, posted 08-30-2012 3:29 AM caffeine has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5983
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 77 of 308 (671755)
08-30-2012 5:11 AM


This has all happened before ... and it will all happen again
Refusing to pay for a war and then refusing to tax the rich who had profited from that war and expecting the middle class to bear the brunt of the cost. That is the Republican plan. It has been tried before. By the Weimar Republic, formed in the destruction of the German Empire (das Zweite Reich) at the end of WWI, in which ruinous inflation completely destroyed the German economy and German's middle class. Which laid the road for Hitler and the National Socialists (AKA "Nazis") to come to power.
Here is what an English historian had to say in 1946:
quote:
The failure of the Kapp putsch was evidence that the results of 19l8 could not yet be openly undone; and the following three years were dominated by the fact that Germany, having failed to plunder Europe, would have to bear the belated burden of the war. The war had cost the Reich 164 milliard marks. Of this sum 93 milliards had been raised by war loans, 29 milliards had been met by treasury bills, the rest by increasing the issue of paper money. Not a penny had been raised by taxation. Republican Germany might have been expected to reform the finances of the Reich and to impose taxation on the rich; but the "national" classes were ready for this emergency -- they alledged that taxes were needed solely to pay reparations to the French. To oppose taxes became a patriotic act; and in 1921 direct taxes were actually reduced. In reality the claims of reparations were trifling compared to the needs of Germany's internal budget; and in l92l-3 hardly any reparations were paid. The inflation which raged at an ever-advancing pace until the end of 1923 was solely due to the failure to balance revenue and expenditure. There was no connection between reparations and inflation, except for purposes of propaganda. Instead of taxing the rich, Germany paid her way and paid off all the costs of the war by destroying the savings of the poor and middle classes. Inflation had a profound political effect: it left Germany in 1924 as free from debt as it had been in 1871, that is to say, inas favourable a financial position at the end of a lost war as it had been at the end of a victorious war. It had a profound economic effect; it enabled German heavy industry to write off all its prior charges and so be free to carry out a new process of rationalizing its procedure almost as sweeping as the original "industrial revolution" in the eighteen-seventies. Most of all it had a profound social effect: it stripped the middle classes of their savings and made the industrial magnates absolute dictators of German economic life. The saving, investing middle class, everywhere the pillar of stability and respectability, was in any case newer in Germany than in France and England-hence the instability of German policy even before l9l4-; it was now utterly destroyed, and Germany thus deprived of her solid, cautious keel. The former rentiers, who had lost their all, ceased to impose a brake: they became resentful of the republic, to whom they attributed their disaster; violent and irresponsible; and ready to follow the first demagogic saviour, not blatantly from the industrial working class. The inflation, more than any other single factor, doomed the republic; its cause was not the policy of the Allies, but the failure to impose direct taxes on the rich.
In 1946!
This has all happened before and it will all happen again.
Unless we stop it!
Edited by dwise1, : "historian", not "history

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 78 of 308 (671806)
08-30-2012 2:33 PM


You know it's bad when even Fox News can spot right wingnut lies
Paul Ryan's Speech in Three Words
Those three words; dazzling, deceiving and distracting.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2012 8:21 PM subbie has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 308 (671836)
08-30-2012 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by subbie
08-30-2012 2:33 PM


Re: You know it's bad when even Fox News can spot right wingnut lies
A few more words
quote:
On the other hand, to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to facts, Ryan’s speech was an apparent attempt to set the world record for the greatest number of blatant lies and misrepresentations slipped into a single political speech. On this measure, while it was Romney who ran the Olympics, Ryan earned the gold.
Ouch.
Paul Ryan’s speech in 3 words | Fox News
But Sally Kohn is no a female version of Glen Beck. Here is her blog.
http://sallykohn.com/
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by subbie, posted 08-30-2012 2:33 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by subbie, posted 08-30-2012 9:09 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 80 of 308 (671842)
08-30-2012 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
08-30-2012 8:21 PM


Re: You know it's bad when even Fox News can spot right wingnut lies
Oh, I'm under no disillusions about Faux News doing any kind of about face. But it is good for a few lolz.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2012 8:21 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 81 of 308 (672052)
09-02-2012 3:53 PM


Lyin' Ryan
What is worse his original marathon lie or his lameass lying backpedal?
Ryan told radio host Hugh Hewitt he had run a "two hour and fifty-something" marathon. Lets look at the transcript.
Mr Ryan is intimating that he has run multiple marathons. This we know is not true. He ran one marathon. The Grandma's marathon in Duluth, MN in 1990. His time was nothing close to 2 hours and 50 something. That would be an elite runner time. His time was 4 hours and 1 minute. Now here is his explanation for his mistake.
quote:
If I were to do any rounding, it would certainly be to four hours, not three.
Maybe that explains why his budget and economic ideas are complete trainwrecks. He obviously has no idea how to round or even what the concept means.
Lying is natural for him and evidently in the past the lying has been risk free. Why would someone make such a blatant easily researched lie unless they feel they are never going to be held accountable.
All the other lies of the Romney/Ryan campaign have slid right by. This one may resonate with the American people because it is so obvious and so egregious. Also, it is something people can relate to and see.
4 hours and 1 minute is nowhere near 3 hours 50 something. Their assumption of the stupidity of the American people may have gone one lie too far.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Jon, posted 09-02-2012 6:59 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 7:36 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 82 of 308 (672056)
09-02-2012 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Theodoric
09-02-2012 3:53 PM


Re: Lyin' Ryan
Their assumption of the stupidity of the American people may have gone one lie too far.
It's not so much the stupidity of the American people (though there's plenty of that). Rather, it's the American people's disinterest in holding any of its public servants accountable that allows folk like Romney to skate by with one lie right after the other, always unchecked and often encouraged.
Of course, the time taken to run a marathon is about as insignificant as whether a president is having extramarital affairs.
So I can't see how this is such a big issue for you...
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Theodoric, posted 09-02-2012 3:53 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Theodoric, posted 09-02-2012 9:05 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 83 of 308 (672057)
09-02-2012 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Theodoric
09-02-2012 3:53 PM


Re: Lyin' Ryan
Perhaps these numbers will provide some perspective.
quote:
Runner’s World has some great statistics on other national candidates that have faster times than Ryan, including the last GOP vice presidential candidate, Sarah Palin, who has a best time of 3:59.
John Edwards has run 3:30 and George W. Bush has run 3:44, while Al Gore is slower than Ryan with a 4:58.
Some amount of "puffing" is expected from politicians, but what on earth would motivate Ryan to spew out a lie about something like this? What would he say if I asked him how much he benched? If your staff had vetted this man, would not such a lie cause you to call the vetting squad back in?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Theodoric, posted 09-02-2012 3:53 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-02-2012 7:44 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34123
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 84 of 308 (672058)
09-02-2012 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by NoNukes
09-02-2012 7:36 PM


Re: Lyin' Ryan
Lying can be a very important skill for a President, but it needs to be done well.
The examples in this thread raise questions that I think are significant. Does Ryan know he lied, does he have the intelligence to understand when lying is appropriate and to lie convincingly, or is he simply relying on the ingrained traits of today's CCoI and Republicans to accept based on Source rather than question the Content?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2012 7:36 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 85 of 308 (672067)
09-02-2012 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Jon
09-02-2012 6:59 PM


Re: Lyin' Ryan
Big issue? Do you even read what people post?
The premise of the post is that not only is he willing to lie he is willing to lie in order to explain the previous lie.
The other point is that a simple lie like this may resonate with the American public more than the lies he and Romney have made about policy and economic issues.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Jon, posted 09-02-2012 6:59 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Jon, posted 09-03-2012 9:33 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 308 (672097)
09-03-2012 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Theodoric
09-02-2012 9:05 PM


Re: Lyin' Ryan
The issue is how long it took to run a marathon.
I really don't care how many lies on top of lies are told about something like that; it is just not an important enough issue to warrant my attention.
That it might resonate with the American people is only a sad fact that speaks to the gullibility of those people who are more interested in a candidate's running times than his political and economic policies.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Theodoric, posted 09-02-2012 9:05 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2012 9:36 AM Jon has replied
 Message 88 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2012 12:49 PM Jon has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 87 of 308 (672098)
09-03-2012 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Jon
09-03-2012 9:33 AM


Re: Lyin' Ryan
speaks to the gullibility of those people who are more interested in a candidate's running times
But that is not the issue is it? That you seem to think that the running times are the issue is kind of astounding to me. It is the ease of lying and the seeming culture of lying he is coming from that is the issue.
That he is willing to and thinks it is ok to blatantly lie about something so innocuous speaks volumes.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Jon, posted 09-03-2012 9:33 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Jon, posted 09-03-2012 1:35 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 88 of 308 (672119)
09-03-2012 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Jon
09-03-2012 9:33 AM


Re: Lyin' Ryan
Maybe Paul Krugman can explain it to you.
quote:
Obviously nobody cares how fast Mr. Ryan can run, and even his strange marathon misstatement wouldn’t be worth talking about in isolation. What makes this incident so striking is, instead, the way it resonates with the essential Rosie-Ruizness of Mr. Ryan’s whole political persona, which is built around big boasts about accomplishments he hasn’t accomplished.
For Mr. Ryan, as you may recall, has positioned himself as an icon of truth-telling and fiscal responsibility, while offering policy proposals that are neither honest nor responsible. He calls for huge tax cuts, while proposing specific spending cuts that, while inflicting immense hardship on our most vulnerable citizens, would fall far short of making up for the revenue loss. His claims to reduce the deficit therefore rely on assertions that he would make up for the lost revenue by closing loopholes that he refuses to specify, and achieve further huge spending cuts in ways that he also refuses to specify.
But didn’t the Congressional Budget Office evaluate Mr. Ryan’s plan and conclude that it would indeed reduce the deficit? I’m glad you asked that. You see, the budget office didn’t actually evaluate his plan, because there weren’t enough details. Instead, it let Mr. Ryan specify paths for future spending and revenue, while noting in what sounds to me like a hint of snark that No proposals were specified that would generate that path.
So Mr. Ryan basically told the budget office to assume that his plan would slash the deficit, then claimed the resulting report as vindication of his deficit-slashing claims. Sorry, but that’s the policy equivalent of sneaking into a marathon near the finish line, then claiming victory.
It ain't about marathon times.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Jon, posted 09-03-2012 9:33 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 308 (672123)
09-03-2012 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Theodoric
09-03-2012 9:36 AM


Re: Lyin' Ryan
It is the ease of lying and the seeming culture of lying he is coming from that is the issue.
But you haven't demonstrated a 'culture of lying' with your citation of a single event about which Ryan has told a few lies.
If you want to show that there is a culture of lying, then show some other lies. And if you present some lies about things that actually matter, I might see some reason to care about Mr. Ryan's lying. Your Message 88 does bring up some important 'lies', but that's not the stuff your panties got bunched up over in Message 81. I can't understand why in the hell this marathon thing is such a big deal for you. Don't all the other lies suffice in demonstrating a 'culture of lying'? Aren't all those other lies more important?
Why so much fuss over Ryan's claims about how long it took him to run a marathon?
That he is willing to and thinks it is ok to blatantly lie about something so innocuous speaks volumes.
You know what a 'fish tale' is, right?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2012 9:36 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 09-03-2012 1:57 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 91 by Taz, posted 09-03-2012 4:35 PM Jon has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9341
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 90 of 308 (672124)
09-03-2012 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Jon
09-03-2012 1:35 PM


Re: Lyin' Ryan
You seem to just want to start a flame war and be contrary so I will just let you have your little hissy fit, ok.
It would take you all five minute to research Ryan and lies. There is a thing called google.
quote:
Campaign professionals vetting Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan as a potential Republican vice presidential candidate warned Mitt Romney‘s strategists that the Congressman had a history of exaggeration and prevarication that could become a campaign issue and distraction but the GOP presidential nominee’s team ignored the warnings.
Romney ignored warnings about Ryan’s history of lies, exaggerations
How about Romneys 533 lies in 30 weeks.
If you want to show that there is a culture of lying, then show some other lies. And if you present some lies about things that actually matter, I might see some reason to care about Mr. Ryan's lying.
When I post information here I expect people have basic knowledge of reality and what is happening in the world around them. You might want to examine this subject critically and actually look up some information yourself.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Jon, posted 09-03-2012 1:35 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
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