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Author Topic:   An excellent Apologetics Lecture
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 25 (671204)
08-23-2012 6:50 AM


(Audio Only)

This man has intelligence and a persuasive argument regarding Christian belief.

Another good one:

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 12:12 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 25 (862268)
09-03-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
08-23-2012 6:50 AM


Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective
I wish I could have produced the transcript! I'm unconvinced that apologists are liars--in general. They simply have a different world view.

Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective Its a long podcast, but the part that I liked was from 1:05 on in for roughly ten minutes. Basically the caller (who is not as skilled at the debate as some of you) and co-host Andrew Rappaport had a rousing argument.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-23-2012 6:50 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ringo, posted 09-03-2019 12:16 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 3 of 25 (862270)
09-03-2019 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Thugpreacha
09-03-2019 12:12 PM


Re: Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective
Phat writes:

I wish I could have produced the transcript!


Produce the argument in your own words.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 12:12 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 12:23 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 25 (862272)
09-03-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ringo
09-03-2019 12:16 PM


Re: Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective
Basically, they were arguing the old idea that A God Who commands the slaughter of other nations is violating His own New Testament Laws of Loving Thy Enemy.

The counter-argument asked the rhetorical question of whether the allies had the moral high ground in the D-Day counter-invasion carried all the way to Berlin.

One side argues that God used a nation as His tool to punish the reprehensible behavior and actions of another nation.

The other side will(and does) argue that the book was written by humans and that God is but a concept of the human mind and that essentially humans define and are responsible for their own morality. But the question still remains.

Would YOU have advocated punishing Nazi Germany (and Imperial Japan) and Al-Queda? If not, why not?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ringo, posted 09-03-2019 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 09-03-2019 12:27 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 12:54 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 5 of 25 (862273)
09-03-2019 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Thugpreacha
09-03-2019 12:23 PM


Re: Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective
Phat writes:

One side argues that God used a nation as His tool to punish the reprehensible behavior and actions of another nation.


That seems like an argument that God's morality is relative. What has it got to do with atheists?

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 12:23 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 6 of 25 (862275)
09-03-2019 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Thugpreacha
09-03-2019 12:23 PM


Re: Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective
quote:
Basically, they were arguing the old idea that A God Who commands the slaughter of other nations is violating His own New Testament Laws of Loving Thy Enemy.

The counter-argument asked the rhetorical question of whether the allies had the moral high ground in the D-Day counter-invasion carried all the way to Berlin.


Their answer, then, is presumably no. There was nothing wrong with what Nazi Germany was doing.

After all, if invaders exterminating the inhabitants of the land are good, what objection can there be to the Nazis doing the same?

Edited by PaulK, : Sorted out “autocorrect”


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 12:23 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 7 of 25 (862284)
09-03-2019 4:13 PM


What are you saying? That it’s morally ok for God to be a murdering bastard but those he made in his likeness should be better behaved?

Children get their values from their parents.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 4:28 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 25 (862286)
09-03-2019 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
09-03-2019 4:13 PM


Children get their values from their parents.
Metaphorically, Adam & Eve grew up the day they chose to acquire knowledge beyond the safety of "home". Metaphorically, Israel also was a rebellious nation in regards to loving God. In this day and age, people not only balk at the idea of loving God...judging His apparent character and behavior with their own wisdom, but they cease worrying about Him altogether. You would claim society "grew up" from its old mythology. I would say we became rebellious and proud in our own eyes. thus why I predict tough times and further lessons for modern people to undergo. And no, I don't gleefully anticipate it. If there is any smirk at all on my face, (inappropriately, of course) it is that you will be shocked upon learning that you dismissed God and that it was a wrong move.

Of course, you allow for a polite nicely nice archetypical God to exist, as long as He doesnt stick His nose in human progress.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2019 4:13 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2019 4:40 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 16 by jar, posted 09-04-2019 8:20 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 25 (862288)
09-03-2019 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
09-03-2019 12:54 PM


Re: Atheist Claims All Morality Is Subjective
It all boils down to who is good and who is bad and whether we can even agree on such a definition. One side would say that Gods people are the good guys---if they obey and listen to Dad. If they do what is right in their own eyes they are rebellious and bad. The argument even goes into the idea that Israel herself was punished--by pagan nations---for not listening to God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 12:54 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 10 of 25 (862289)
09-03-2019 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Thugpreacha
09-03-2019 4:28 PM


You didn't answer the question, is it morally ok for god to murder?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 4:28 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 4:42 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 25 (862290)
09-03-2019 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tangle
09-03-2019 4:40 PM


Claymation Nation
The potter can do what He wants with the clay. Where did the clay even get the idea that it was ok to argue? (a quickie answer...im on the way out the door to get to work )

Here is the answer from John Piper: (What do you think of his response?)

quote:
Why was it right for God to slaughter women and children in the Old Testament? How can that ever be right?

It's right for God to slaughter women and children anytime he pleases. God gives life and he takes life. Everybody who dies, dies because God wills that they die.

God is taking life every day. He will take 50,000 lives today. Life is in God's hand. God decides when your last heartbeat will be, and whether it ends through cancer or a bullet wound. God governs.

So God is God! He rules and governs everything. And everything he does is just and right and good. God owes us nothing.

If I were to drop dead right now, or a suicide bomber downstairs were to blow this building up and I were blown into smithereens, God would have done me no wrong. He does no wrong to anybody when he takes their life, whether at 2 weeks or at age 92.

God is not beholden to us at all. He doesn't owe us anything.

Now add to that the fact we're all sinners and deserve to die and go to hell yesterday, and the reality that we're even breathing today is sheer common grace from God.

I could make the question harder. As it was stated, it doesn't feel hard to me, because God was stated as the actor.

My basic answer is that the Old and New Testaments present God as the one who has total rights over my life and over my death.

"The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). How he takes away is his call. He never wrongs anybody.

How would you state it to make the question harder?

The part that makes it harder is that he commands people to do it. He commanded Joshua to slaughter people, okay? You've got human beings killing humans, and therefore a moral question of what is right to do.

The Bible says, "Thou shalt not murder," yet God says to Joshua, "Go in and clean house, and don't leave anything breathing! Don't leave a donkey, child, woman, old man or old woman breathing. Wipeout Jericho."

My answer to that is that there is a point in history, a season in history, where God is the immediate king of a people, Israel, different than the way he is the king over the church, which is from all the peoples of Israel and does not have a political, ethnic dimension to it.

With Joshua there was a political, ethnic dimension, God was immediate king, and he uses this people as his instrument to accomplish his judgment in the world at that time. And God, it says, let the sins of the Amorites accumulate for 400 years so that they would be full (Genesis 15:16), and then sends his own people in as instruments of judgment.

So I would vindicate Joshua by saying that in that setting, with that relationship between God and his people, it was right for Joshua to do what God told him to do, which was to annihilate the people.

But that's much more complex morally than saying that God does it. He can cause a flood and kill everybody on the planet except 8 people and not do a single one of them any wrong. But he didn't ask anybody else to do that. It gets difficult when he uses others.

An example of this right now is that God has given the sword to the government (Romans 13:4). Therefore I believe the government has a right to take a rapist and a murderer and to put him in jail. Or to kill him.

I think capital punishment is consistent with Genesis 9 and consistent with God's character, because of the value of man: "The blood of a man shall be shed for taking the blood of a man" (Genesis 9:6) But that's very different than saying that anybody can go around killing people.

So God has his times and seasons for when he shares his authority to take and give life. And the church today is not Israel, and we are not a political entity. Therefore the word we have from the Lord today is, "Love your enemy. Pray for those who abuse you. Lay your life down for the world. Don't kill in order to spread the gospel, but die to spread it."


Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 09-03-2019 4:40 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 4:50 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2019 2:48 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 12 of 25 (862291)
09-03-2019 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Thugpreacha
09-03-2019 4:42 PM


Re: Claymation Nation
He’s effectively reduced goodness and justice to meaningless noises.

It’s funny how often those who proclaim a belief in absolute morality turn out to be nihilists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 4:42 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 4:55 PM PaulK has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 25 (862292)
09-03-2019 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
09-03-2019 4:50 PM


Re: Claymation Nation
So was it right what the allies did to Nazi Germany? Was it right what was done to Al-Queda?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 4:50 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 09-03-2019 5:06 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 14 of 25 (862293)
09-03-2019 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Thugpreacha
09-03-2019 4:55 PM


Re: Claymation Nation
quote:
So was it right what the allies did to Nazi Germany? Was it right what was done to Al-Queda?

I’d say so. That’s why I’m not trying to justify genocidal invaders.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 4:55 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 15 of 25 (862316)
09-04-2019 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Thugpreacha
09-03-2019 4:42 PM


Re: Claymation Nation
Phat writes:

Here is the answer from John Piper: (What do you think of his response?)

He tells you that the God that you worship is sick and evil. So much for our morality originating in religion. Jesus would hate everything he stands for and so should you.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 4:42 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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