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Author Topic:   An excellent Apologetics Lecture
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 16 of 25 (862318)
09-04-2019 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Thugpreacha
09-03-2019 4:28 PM


Phat writes:

Metaphorically, Israel also was a rebellious nation in regards to loving God.

History Phat. History. Forget the Dogma and look at the facts.

Israel was rebellious in the eyes of Judah. Two Jewish Proto-States with entirely different ideas of what God was and what God wanted.

Learn to actually read what is written in the Bible stories and ignore what the Snake-oil Salesmen claim should have been written.

The Old Testament is filled with actual information if you will read it honestly.

It begins with two entirely different Gods that reflect how the people of two different eras imagined God. Understand the evolution and changes both in what God was imagined to be but also the evolution and changes in the society over time. If you look you will see that it all starts with a band of peoples who worship different deities that over time evolve into separate and often fighting tribes that then combine into the beginnings of statehood but in to dramatically different directions, one a Theocracy and the other form a Monarchy.

Look at the Gods that are created. The God of Exodus can never be described as moral. The God of Genesis 1 is ammoral and totally uninvolved beyond the initial act of creation; the potter who creates a vase then walks away from it never looking back. The God of Genesis 2&3 is very human; fearful, capricious, not totally honest but also forgiving and involved.

Read the Bible and pay attention to what is actually written instead of the wonders claimed to be in the bottle.

Edited by jar, : what is teh


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-03-2019 4:28 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-04-2019 11:12 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 25 (862358)
09-04-2019 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
09-04-2019 8:20 AM


Revisionist History and Evidence
Interesting. According to Wiki,
According to the Hebrew Bible, the kingdom of Judah resulted from the break-up of the United Kingdom of Israel (1020 to about 930 BCE) after the northern tribes refused to accept Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, as their king.
It would be as if the US split up, one side preferring a secular democracy and the other side preferring a Theocratic Republic.
jar writes:

Two Jewish Proto-States with entirely different ideas of what God was and what God wanted.

Its a bit like you now...teaching that God is ultimately a product of the human mind. Did anyone teach that heresey then?

Learn to actually read what is written in the Bible stories and ignore what the Snake-oil Salesmen claim should have been written.
Not all apologists are snake-oil salesmen. They simply have a different idea(and belief) as to who God is.

The Old Testament is filled with actual information if you will read it honestly.

It begins with two entirely different Gods that reflect how the people of two different eras imagined God.

See? This confirms it. You dont see God as actually existing as much as you see God (and Jesus) as products of our culture.
Understand the evolution and changes both in what God was imagined to be but also the evolution and changes in society over time. If you look you will see that it all starts with a band of peoples who worship different deities that over time evolve into separate and often fighting tribes that then combine into the beginnings of statehood but into dramatically different directions, one a Theocracy and the other form a Monarchy.
Sounds logical, but I reject your ideology. You, like Stile, base everything on logic, reason, and what you claim to be reality. Your guns dont protect society any more than do your words.

Look at the Gods that are created. The God of Exodus can never be described as moral. The God of Genesis 1 is amoral and totally uninvolved beyond the initial act of creation; the potter who creates a vase then walks away from it never looking back. The God of Genesis 2&3 is very human; fearful, capricious, not totally honest but also forgiving and involved.
So you always claim. Many people who have read the Bible conclude differently than you do. Perhaps the biggest reason you never got saved is that your Mama taught you that it is a copout. And I can see why many current Christian cults confirm your decision as the right one. (By their atrocious behavior) Apparently Stile believes as you taught us to believe: GOD is forever unknowable. Throw Him away.

And to be fair, I see great hypocrisy in many apologists. I studied Matt Slick as he debated Matt Dillahunty. Dillahunty is much more preferable of a teacher despite the fact that he is an atheist. Slick is pompous, overbearing, and full of hot air. And I know that you will again accuse me of misrepresenting you as if you are the Lord and Master of framing the issue. Tell me now where I am wrong. I await your response breathlessly and full of anticipation.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 09-04-2019 8:20 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 09-04-2019 11:52 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-04-2019 3:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 18 of 25 (862366)
09-04-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Thugpreacha
09-04-2019 11:12 AM


Re: Revisionist History and Evidence
Phat writes:

...teaching that God is ultimately a product of the human mind. Did anyone teach that heresey then?


Just about every religion teaches that the other guy's god is made up. You beleve that Zeus and Thor are made up, don't you?

Phat writes:

Not all apologists are snake-oil salesmen.


Still waiting for you to show us one who isn't.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-04-2019 11:12 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 1:28 AM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 19 of 25 (862401)
09-04-2019 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Thugpreacha
09-04-2019 11:12 AM


Re: Revisionist History and Evidence
Phat writes:

Its a bit like you now...teaching that God is ultimately a product of the human mind. Did anyone teach that heresey then?

Did the authors at the time write what is included in the stories? If so, they wrote about the God they imagined.

Phat writes:

See? This confirms it. You dont see God as actually existing as much as you see God (and Jesus) as products of our culture.

No Phat, stop saying really stupid shit. I see what the authors of the time wrote. I am not talking about our culture but what the authors wrote.

Phat writes:

Sounds logical, but I reject your ideology. You, like Stile, base everything on logic, reason, and what you claim to be reality. Your guns dont protect society any more than do your words.

Stop saying shit Phat. My guns are not meant to protect society. Read what was actually written. It's called the Bible Phat and it is actually there so you can read it.

Phat writes:

So you always claim. Many people who have read the Bible conclude differently than you do. Perhaps the biggest reason you never got saved is that your Mama taught you that it is a copout. And I can see why many current Christian cults confirm your decision as the right one. (By their atrocious behavior) Apparently Stile believes as you taught us to believe: GOD is forever unknowable. Throw Him away.

And to be fair, I see great hypocrisy in many apologists. I studied Matt Slick as he debated Matt Dillahunty. Dillahunty is much more preferable of a teacher despite the fact that he is an atheist. Slick is pompous, overbearing, and full of hot air. And I know that you will again accuse me of misrepresenting you as if you are the Lord and Master of framing the issue. Tell me now where I am wrong. I await your response breathlessly and full of anticipation.

My answer is as always the same; instead of just accepting what the Apologists market, read what is actually written.

And getting saved is just another utterly made up snake-oil. NO ONE knows whether or not they are or will be saved until after they are dead and judged. But the conmen love selling SALVATION. It's profitable and carries no product liability risk.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-04-2019 11:12 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 4:56 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 25 (862420)
09-05-2019 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
09-04-2019 11:52 AM


No Apologies
ringo writes:

Just about every religion teaches that the other guy's god is made up. You believe that Zeus and Thor are made up, don't you?

True, though I would use the appeal to popularity as my (only) valid defense. It would be easy, of course, to defend my belief based on the seriousness with which I initially experienced it (conversion) but all that I have to offer is at best subjective. Many, many similar stories exist from others, however. Moreover, I would argue that many of the other gods are not made up---they are actual demons disguised as God. Critics will argue that modern mythos is similar in regard to various deities...Zeus himself was a Demiurge, according to Wikipedia. Greek philosophy was quite precise in tying the gods into the human progression of thought. And I can see the argument...I just don't agree with it for obvious reasons.

jar may claim that the evidence shows that the God(s) of the Bible were themselves human constructs...in that, we have no way of showing the evidence of GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen nor of His Son, (His character) anthropomorphized as human. Another reasonable argument, yet one rejected by most who claim to be believers. Hence again the appeal to popularity. Whether God exists outside the human mind, which I believe He does or is simply a product of the human mind individually and collectively will likely never be objectively proven. Unless such a Creator wanted it known at some point.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 09-04-2019 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 09-05-2019 12:01 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12813
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 25 (862425)
09-05-2019 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
09-04-2019 3:07 PM


Re: Revisionist History and Evidence
jar writes:

And getting saved is just another utterly made up snake-oil.

Then how come I changed and became aware of a profound inner awareness when I allegedly "got saved"? And why do many others report the same change? Mass hypnosis??
NO ONE knows whether or not they are or will be saved until after they are dead and judged.
So? No one knows whether or not God exists until after they die, if then. But belief is strong in many. Their works prove their seriousness and commitment.
jar writes:

But the conmen love selling SALVATION.

How much of the church do you see as P.T.Barnumesque? Do you, like ringo, say that all apologists are snake-oil hucksters? Why would you be so skeptical of so many people? Seems all of the Clubs in Christianity are dishonest *except* yours.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 09-04-2019 3:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2019 5:30 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 23 by jar, posted 09-05-2019 8:16 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 22 of 25 (862426)
09-05-2019 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Thugpreacha
09-05-2019 4:56 AM


Re: Revisionist History and Evidence
Phat writes:

Then how come I changed and became aware of a profound inner awareness when I allegedly "got saved"? And why do many others report the same change?

How come there are so many suicide bombers? How come there are so many mental illnesses? How come there are so many crazy sects willing to think and believe all sorts of batshit crazy things? How come Mormons, Scientologists, dowsers, Hindus, astrologers?

It's your mind Phat, it can do powerful things to you. Do voluntary work in a mental hospital for a few months - you'll see that people can sincerely believe absolutely anything. Nothing can change a Napoleon of Jesus's mind that they're delusional.

Mass hypnosis??

No, just the way our brains are wired. You would not believe what you believe now had you been born to Hindu parents. We learn beliefs, we are programmed to believe them - some peoplemore than others.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 4:56 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 23 of 25 (862431)
09-05-2019 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Thugpreacha
09-05-2019 4:56 AM


Re: Revisionist History and Evidence
Phat writes:

Then how come I changed and became aware of a profound inner awareness when I allegedly "got saved"? And why do many others report the same change? Mass hypnosis??

Tangle covered that just above.

Phat writes:

So? No one knows whether or not God exists until after they die, if then. But belief is strong in many. Their works prove their seriousness and commitment.

LOL. What works Phat? That's the problem. What works differentiate a "Christian Believer" from the rest of the general population or a "Muslim Believer"?

Phat writes:

How much of the church do you see as P.T.Barnumesque? Do you, like ringo, say that all apologists are snake-oil hucksters? Why would you be so skeptical of so many people? Seems all of the Clubs in Christianity are ********* *except* yours.

Apologists are not Christianity. Apologists claims should be tested just as the products of any other salesman or for that matter anything I post.

If you test what the apologists say against what is actually written it shows an almost universal trait of quote mining, taking things out of context, misrepresentation and misdirection at best. In far too many cases what is shown is just plain outright deceit.

For a decade an a half now you and I have been holding the same conversation.

Does the apologist tell you to doubt what he is saying and to go test what he is saying against the evidence?

Do I tell you to doubt what I am saying and to go test what I am saying against the evidence?

What does the evidence show?

And there are apologist that are part of the same chapter of Club Christian as me; NT Wright is one. Do I agree with everything NT Wright publishes or pronounces? Nope. Do I think he is a snake-oil salesman? Jury is out BUT at least NT Wright tells folk to check the evidence and to look at the evidence through the eyes of that era, location and mythos.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 4:56 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17300
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 24 of 25 (862454)
09-05-2019 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Thugpreacha
09-05-2019 1:28 AM


Re: No Apologies
Phat writes:

True, though I would use the appeal to popularity as my (only) valid defense.


Then Islam, Roman Catholicism and Hinduism would all win out over Protestantism.

Phat writes:

Moreover, I would argue that many of the other gods are not made up---they are actual demons disguised as God.


That doen't help you. They could say the same about your God - and the claim would be supported by your own scriptures.

“Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.”
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2019 1:28 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15395
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 25 of 25 (862499)
09-05-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
08-23-2012 6:50 AM


It’s funny how you haven’t produced anything at all good from any of these videos or podcasts.

If they had any good points why not discuss them ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-23-2012 6:50 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
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