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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery: Ice Age is a Product of the Flood
PaulK
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Posts: 14750
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(4)
Message 31 of 70 (671903)
08-31-2012 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by foreveryoung
08-30-2012 7:57 PM


quote:

What claims are you talking about? Looking at San Francisco today without geological tools, one would have no reason to suspect there was ever a great earthquake there. It is very likely a whole egyptian city did move. The documentary made a very convincing case for it.

I am talking about the claims you refer to. The fact that you choose to qualify your claim about the San Francisco earthquake - to the point of rendering it irrelevant - shows that even you have trouble believing that one. Your claim about the Egyptian city is dubious too - how did they make a "very convincing case" that it moved unless they had evidence - and strong evidence at that.

quote:

What would happen if you wiped out the human population and reseeded it with 7 people?

More like 5 in the Flood story (you count Noah and his wife, but not the sons). You'd see a massive genetic bottleneck in humanity and a genetic and archaeological discontinuity over practically all the world, where the people all died and were eventually replaced by descendants of the survivors. We don't have any of that. So even considering humans alone the Flood story doesn't stand up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by foreveryoung, posted 08-30-2012 7:57 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ICANT, posted 09-01-2012 12:12 AM PaulK has responded

    
Percy
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Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 32 of 70 (671910)
08-31-2012 11:19 AM


Peeta's First Foray
Peeta's initial foray was pretty pathetic. As expected he's going to be making it up as he goes along. He begins by asking Coyote which YEC age of the Earth he should use, then follows that with an off-topic post about sin and why we wear clothes and have to worry about freezing to death.

Late August is a time when many college students return to campus, and while waiting for friends to return and for classes to begin some of them stumble across this site. Peeta will soon run out of spare time and be seen no more.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Peeta Mellark, posted 08-31-2012 11:10 PM Percy has responded

    
Theodoric
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Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 33 of 70 (671914)
08-31-2012 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by foreveryoung
08-30-2012 7:40 PM


The arrived at their conclusion by starting with historical documents. When the evidence did not match up to the documents, they began to ask why. The first thing that cleared things up was that the position of the nile was different when the document was written than it is today. The other piece of evidence that solidified their case was another city some distance away that matched in fine detail what the document said about the city. What clinched it was a good solid reason for moving the city.

I cannot remember the name of the egyptian city I saw documented on the history channel,

Well if you cannot give us any more info than this we will just have to file this under shit you made up.

The first thing that cleared things up was that the position of the nile was different when the document was written than it is today.

No shit. Anyone with a passing knowledge of the Nile and Egyptian history knows the Nile has wandered throughout history.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by foreveryoung, posted 08-30-2012 7:40 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by caffeine, posted 09-03-2012 8:41 AM Theodoric has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 34 of 70 (671938)
08-31-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by foreveryoung
08-30-2012 7:53 PM


If you say about 4.2 billion years ago, there is plenty of evidence for a world covered in water and the appearance of mountains being covered.

But what we should require is a flood during the time period when there were people around. A flood 3-4 billion years ago would not qualify.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by foreveryoung, posted 08-30-2012 7:53 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Peeta Mellark
Junior Member (Idle past 2298 days)
Posts: 16
Joined: 08-29-2012


Message 35 of 70 (671952)
08-31-2012 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by PaulK
08-30-2012 10:35 AM


But how long would it take for the clouds to cover 100% of the earth?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2012 10:35 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Peeta Mellark
Junior Member (Idle past 2298 days)
Posts: 16
Joined: 08-29-2012


Message 36 of 70 (671953)
08-31-2012 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Percy
08-31-2012 11:19 AM


Re: Peeta's First Foray
Actually Percy, it was not all made up. I had my own reasons for asking Coyote about the clothes.
Now on the other hand, something that is a completely false fabrication is your assuming that I am in college.

and btw I'm from New Hampshire too, so if you really wanna find out what I'm talking about we should meet up somewhere so I can explain.

Edited by Peeta Mellark, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 08-31-2012 11:19 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 09-01-2012 8:30 AM Peeta Mellark has not yet responded
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 09-07-2012 12:22 PM Peeta Mellark has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


(5)
Message 37 of 70 (671957)
08-31-2012 11:58 PM


Bees on crack could construct an argument better than this. Also they would make delicious crack honey.
Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Peeta Mellark, posted 09-01-2012 12:13 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(2)
Message 38 of 70 (671959)
09-01-2012 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by PaulK
08-31-2012 10:44 AM


5
Hi Paulk,

Paulk writes:

More like 5 in the Flood story (you count Noah and his wife, but not the sons).

What happened to the three women that was no kin and therefore did not have the DNA of the 5 you mentioned? They could have all 3 had completely different DNA.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 08-31-2012 10:44 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2012 12:31 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 09-01-2012 2:04 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Peeta Mellark
Junior Member (Idle past 2298 days)
Posts: 16
Joined: 08-29-2012


Message 39 of 70 (671960)
09-01-2012 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
08-31-2012 11:58 PM


Bees on Crack
Well all of those bees died because they had overdosed. But if drugs will help me form a better argument... then it's just to bad that I'm Straight Edge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-31-2012 11:58 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 40 of 70 (671961)
09-01-2012 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by ICANT
09-01-2012 12:12 AM


Re: 5
PaulK writes:

More like 5 in the Flood story (you count Noah and his wife, but not the sons).

ICANT writes:

What happened to the three women that was no kin and therefore did not have the DNA of the 5 you mentioned? They could have all 3 had completely different DNA.

Paul counted them already.

From Gen 7:13

quote:
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

If you exclude Noah's sons for the reason that they add no genes not possessed by their parents, the count is 5.

Nonetheless I see your miscount has received a cheer.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ICANT, posted 09-01-2012 12:12 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19756
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 41 of 70 (671965)
09-01-2012 1:13 AM


looks like Gish Gallop time ...
So far no answers only more questions ... Gish Gallop anyone?

and a sally at misrepresenting 14C dating ... to Coyote ... lol.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : ,


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2012 1:33 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3309
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(5)
Message 42 of 70 (671966)
09-01-2012 1:16 AM


From Message 20:

Peeta Mellark writes:

And (with the exception of carbon dating) how do we know how old the universe is?


*Cough* *cough* *sputter*

Peeta, how much science schooling have you had? Are you in the least familiar with carbon dating? With radiometric dating? With half-lives?

Let's say that you need to weigh something. What kind of a scale would you use? Simply put, if you were really serious about making that measurement, then you would have to pick the appropriate scale.

OK, I've been trained as an electronics technician, in which one of our tools is a voltmeter. If you pick up a multi-meter (measures voltage, current, and resistance over multiple ranges) to measure a certain voltage, which range do you use? Ignoring standard procedure in which we don't peg the D'Arsonval meter movement which would destroy it (ultimately within a physical multimeter it all boils down to measuring current, though things are different in a digital multimeter), we need to choose the right range to make our measurement. Pick a range too low and the reading will read at the max, but if you pick a range too high then the reading will be too low to measure accurately. The same idea applies to weighing something and having to know to use a bathroom scale, a truck scale, or an apothecary's scale.

Different isotopes have different decay rates, different half-lives. Some are longer than others, much much longer. As a result, the isotopes with longer half-lives can measure time for much longer than isotopes with much shorter half-lives. Uranium half-lives are very long, so their half-lives and their daughters' half-lives can be used to measure long periods of time, periods of time appropriate to measuring the age of the earth. Carbon-14's half-life is much shorter, such that the longest period of time that C-14 can measure is about 50,000 years.

So if you apply C-14 dating to something that is much older than 50,000 years, you will come up with the maximum reading of the C-14 scale, 50,000 years. Over the decades, I have watched one creationist after another parade some sample millions of years old that they had subjected to C-14 testing and came up with an age of 50,000 years. Duh? Kent Hovind, convicted on the federal level of fraud (OK, tax fraud, but he also has lied about everything else), had even submitted a completely fossilized specimen for C-14 testing and it came back aged at the maximum, 50,000 years, though in that YouTube clip, the narrator kept shouting, "But there's no f***ing carbon!"

Radio-carbon dating has absolutely nothing to do with determining the age of the earth. When a creationist tries to claim that it does, then that is immediate proof that that creationist has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. Kind of like when a creationist says, "But evolution is only a theory!"

But your question of how we do know how old the earth and the universe is is an appropriate and necessary question. The answers are there. You just need to be ready to learn them.

Consider The Age of the Earth by G. Brent Dalrymple of the US Geological Survey (1994). Most of the same have been published everywhere.

But in the meantime, you need to disabuse yourself of certain false ideas, such as carbon-dating having anything at all to do with the age of the earth, let alone the universe.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix message ID number, per RAZD in message 43 below.


Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2012 1:29 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19756
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 43 of 70 (671969)
09-01-2012 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by dwise1
09-01-2012 1:16 AM


link
Hi dwise1

From [mid]:

Make that Message 20 on Ice Age is a Product of the Flood (Peeta Mellark and Coyote only)

Enjoy

{Link fixed - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by dwise1, posted 09-01-2012 1:16 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 44 of 70 (671970)
09-01-2012 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by RAZD
09-01-2012 1:13 AM


Some patience.
He is making some errors, but perhaps some of his questions have a point. Coyote seems inclined to be patient with him. I think we should be too. Engaging the peanut gallery is a mistake.

You cannot really Gish Gallop effectively in a written debate on a limited subject because you are going to get called on it.

I disagree with Percy on one thing. There used to be a huge "August" effect back in the '90s, when freshmen got to college found the internet and usenet for the first time, but nowadays August seems to be year round.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2012 1:13 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14750
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 45 of 70 (671971)
09-01-2012 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by ICANT
09-01-2012 12:12 AM


Re: 5
quote:

What happened to the three women that was no kin and therefore did not have the DNA of the 5 you mentioned? They could have all 3 had completely different DNA

The 5 are Noah, his wife and the wives of the 3 sons. As I said quite explicitly it is the three sons that are not counted out of the 8. So, if you meant the 3 wives, they are clearly included to anyone who can manage to subtract 3 from 8. If you mean some other 3 women I am going to ask where you got them from.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ICANT, posted 09-01-2012 12:12 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
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