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Author Topic:   The $5,000,000 ID Research Challenge
ringo
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Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 14 of 285 (671918)
08-31-2012 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taq
08-30-2012 8:55 PM


Re: Create life
Taq writes:

I think we can all agree that an intelligent species could create life. What we are actually interested in is if life on Earth was produced by an intelligence in the past.


That sounds like more of a historical question than a scientific one. "Could it happen?" is easier to detemine in the lab than "Did it happen?"

But I think IDists are far from conceding that it could happen. Their desired outcome is that intelligence is necessary but our intelligence is insufficient. Any research they did would be shooting themselves in the foot.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taq, posted 08-30-2012 8:55 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Taq, posted 08-31-2012 12:46 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 17 of 285 (671926)
08-31-2012 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taq
08-31-2012 12:46 PM


Re: Create life
Taq writes:

We can observe evolution in the lab, so we know that it can happen. We can then ask if it did happen in the past, and we can run experiments to see if it did.


Suppose we create life in the lab using our intelligence. Knowing that it "could" happen either by intelligence or by evolution, how would you tell which way it "did" happen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Taq, posted 08-31-2012 12:46 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Taq, posted 08-31-2012 1:07 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
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Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 88 of 285 (681662)
11-27-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by tesla
11-27-2012 2:28 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
tesla writes:

Science is about exploring possibilities.


And exploration is about going there to see what you can find, not just sitting in your armchar dreaming about what "might" be there. Five million dollars would buy a pretty nice Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria but IDists don't seem to be interested in leaving the dock.

Edited by ringo, : Splling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by tesla, posted 11-27-2012 2:28 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 94 of 285 (682806)
12-05-2012 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by tesla
11-30-2012 11:41 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
teslas writes:

I'm sure the religious will decide to be I.D’ists, but that might not be a bad thing if they are actively supporting the science of understanding the body we live in, and potentially discovering God, in whatever form that 'could' be.


Are they doing that though? Are they doing anything active?

The OP asks for concrete experiments to test ID and offers a hypothetical $5 million to pay for the research. So far, we haven't exactly seen a plethora of proposals.

The people who believe so firmly in ID, whether they're "religious" or not, don't seem very eager to test their faith.


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 Message 91 by tesla, posted 11-30-2012 11:41 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(3)
Message 99 of 285 (683110)
12-07-2012 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by tesla
12-06-2012 1:39 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
tesla writes:

ringp writes:


The people who believe so firmly in ID, whether they're "religious" or not, don't seem very eager to test their faith.


People ask for water you shovel them dirt, what do you expect?

I expect them to behave like scientists, if they want to be treated like scientists. If you offered five million dollars to real scientists, you'd be up to your ears in proposals. If IDists spent a fraction of their propaganda budget on actual research....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by tesla, posted 12-06-2012 1:39 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
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Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(3)
Message 105 of 285 (683632)
12-12-2012 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by tesla
12-12-2012 12:00 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
tesla writes:

Having no real proof that you will not continue to exist in some other dimensional part of the universal system, (but do recognize the potential of other dimensions) and also having no proof of God being, or NOT being, having literally, NO data for a conclusion, you come to a conclusion?


You seem to have lost the plot. This discussion is about YOU - i.e. the "people of faith" - finding data for YOUR conclusion. It's about YOU being offered money to find that data. The question is, Why are you more interested in ranting than in testing YOUR own conclusions?

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ringo
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Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 112 of 285 (683895)
12-14-2012 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by tesla
12-13-2012 10:21 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
tesla writes:

So you wanted my true honest beliefs and opinions....


No I didn't. I wanted to know why you're unwilling to test your beliefs and opinions.

tesla writes:

you want to know what the problem is between religion and science?


There is no problem between science and religion. Some religious people want to create a problem but they don't want to put any real effort into it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by tesla, posted 12-13-2012 10:21 PM tesla has responded

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ringo
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Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 122 of 285 (684068)
12-15-2012 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by tesla
12-14-2012 8:09 PM


tesla writes:

I'm suggesting improving scientific capabilities so that tests could be run.


You've got a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem there. Before science can invent the machinery to do the test, you have to be specific about what you want to test. For the umpteenth time, that's what this thread is all about - for you to propose specific tests and specific equipment to do the tests with. If you need a machine to detect "design waves" then tell us what their properties are and we'll put the lab boys and girls to work on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:09 PM tesla has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 152 of 285 (687606)
01-14-2013 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by tesla
12-22-2012 11:55 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
tesla writes:

I want the language of the brain understood to the point you can watch dreams on a screen, and even have a meter to show emotional feelings connected to the dream etc.


How is that research into ID? How would it help determine whether ID is true or false?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 161 of 285 (687686)
01-15-2013 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by tesla
01-14-2013 7:27 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
tesla writes:

You have to build a rocket ship to the moon before you can land on the moon. We have to understand what the language of consciousness is on all levels before we can ascertain what greater consciousness might look like.


So what you're saying is that we "aren't ready yet" to do any research into ID. You're affirming that ID is not science; in fact, it's only specualtion that ID might possibly some day become science.

I think most people would agree with that assessment - and it explains why there are no research grants for ID.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by tesla, posted 01-14-2013 7:27 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 9:47 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 180 of 285 (688530)
01-23-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by tesla
01-23-2013 9:47 AM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
tesla writes:

I.D. is the chapter of science that includes the acceptance of the potential of God, and wishes to seek God through legitimate science.


That sounds OK to me.

tesla writes:

The legitimate science I have already proposed, that you wish to disregard because it is not 'magical enough' to fit your definition of what I.D. science is to you.


You seem to be thinking of somebody else. What I've been asking you is how your proposed research would point to God. Would your "God detector" be able to distinguish between, say, a god and a technologically-advanced alien lifeform?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 9:47 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 1:22 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 206 of 285 (688670)
01-24-2013 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by tesla
01-23-2013 1:22 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
tesla writes:

So all I'm getting from you is ignoring all that data I have just stated in a simple post, that God is potential, and it's time we explore those potentials with legitimate science....


What legitimate science does is explore potentials. What I'm not getting from you is any specifics about how your suggestions will point in the direction of "God".

You'e basically just saying, "Go out and look for stuff." What we want in this thread is something more specific.

Columbus wouldn't have gotten any funding if he had proposed just sailing around until he found something interesting. He had to specify what he was looking for, where he expected to find it and how he planned to go about getting there.

That is what we want from you. Not just, "Look around and you'll find God," but, "I think God is at location X. I propose to go there by following route Y which will cost Z dollars."

Tell us what route Y is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 1:22 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 228 of 285 (735428)
08-14-2014 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Jackal32
08-14-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The hardware is the software
Jackal32 writes:

I suggest that the protein’s hardware (structure) determines its software (role in the cell) – and that software could not have originated spontaneously, it had to be programmed into the hardware. In effect, the hardware is the software.


If the hardware could have originated spontaneously - and we have no reason to think it couldn't - then the "software" would have automatically originated at the same tme.

So what do you actually want to do with the research grant?

Edited by ringo, : Splling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Jackal32, posted 08-14-2014 11:43 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 255 of 285 (735776)
08-24-2014 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by mram10
08-23-2014 6:29 PM


mram10 writes:

How "simple" is the most simple organism?


What's the difference between living and non-living?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by mram10, posted 08-23-2014 6:29 PM mram10 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18879
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 263 of 285 (735841)
08-26-2014 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by mram10
08-25-2014 7:14 PM


Re: more signs of willful ignorance
mram10 writes:

If you have proof that life started from elements with no help from an ID/God, please show me. Not theory, but proof.


If you have proof that objects fall with no help from pink unicorns, please show us.

I don't think you can. Of course, your first objection might be that there is no evidence that pink unicorns even exist....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by mram10, posted 08-25-2014 7:14 PM mram10 has not yet responded

  
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