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Author Topic:   The $5,000,000 ID Research Challenge
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 163 of 285 (687691)
01-15-2013 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
01-15-2013 12:16 PM


Hypotheticals
Phat writes:

1) Preaching is not easier than debating because in order to preach you have to listen to the Spirit...you cant just go off on your own intellect and opinion.

If this hypothetical creator of yours is so knowledgeable then anyone listening to him sufficiently should have access to enough knowledge and insight to both preach effectively and successfully tackle any debate.

Phat writes:

2) Debate is also not easy, but its useful. I'll start one by maintaining that human wisdom will never get us where we need to be(or ideally want to be) by itself. The fear (and acknowledgement) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

If you have been listening to your hypothetical creator and he has told you that your statement above is an effective form of preaching I can only question just how knowledgeable this creator of yours really is.

Phat writes:

I suppose that you will challenge this assertion by saying that essentially absence of evidence is evidence of absence...but i see no evidence that human wisdom will ever enable the inhabitants of a dust speck 9 light minutes away from the sun(nearest star) in a galaxy of 100 billion stars among 100+ billion galaxies will ever attain the knowledge that a (hypothetical) Creator already has.

Well hypothetically a hypothetical human could obtain as much knowledge as a hypothetical creator.

Or are you suggesting that the absence of such a knowledgeable human is evidence that such a knowledgeable human could not possibly exist......?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 01-15-2013 12:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 01-15-2013 12:55 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 165 of 285 (687694)
01-15-2013 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
01-15-2013 12:55 PM


Re: Hypotheticals
Well why don't we test this belief in divine wisdom? That could form the basis for a research project could it not?

Let's take someone who believes that they are in communication with the divine (e.g. yourself apparently) and see whether they can demonstrate the validity of this belief by extracting some knowledge from the divine that it would otherwise not be possible for a mere human to have access to.

What do you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 01-15-2013 12:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 01-15-2013 1:02 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 167 of 285 (687697)
01-15-2013 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
01-15-2013 1:02 PM


Re: Hypotheticals
Phat writes:

1) Preaching is not easier than debating because in order to preach you have to listen to the Spirit...you cant just go off on your own intellect and opinion.

Why is it is possible to "listen to the Spirit" in such a way that the ability to preach transcends "your own intellect and opinion" but not possible to "listen to the spirit" and similarly overcome the restrictions imposed by one's intellect and opinion when it comes to anything remotely useful or testable?

Phat writes:

Watch this hypothetical argument and tell me what you think, Straggie.

Well I think it's a deeply flawed position on the problem of evil that has little relevance to this topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 01-15-2013 1:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 01-15-2013 2:14 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 173 of 285 (687743)
01-16-2013 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
01-15-2013 2:14 PM


Re: Hypotheticals
Phat writes:

How does one study intelligent design apart from studying intelligence itself?

But that is precisely what I am proposing be researched. You have claimed that preaching requires access to something beyond one's "own intellect and opinion".

I am suggesting that if you can communicate with this intelligent being such that you are able to transcend your "own intellect and opinion" then rather than merely preaching why not apply this ability in such a way as to conclusively demonstrates that you can actually transcend your "own intellect and opinion".

Why not use this ability of yours to reveal a testable truth that your intellect and opinion could not possibly have arrived at? This would give far more objective credence to claims of communicating with the "divine" than any amount of preaching wouldn't it?

Straggler writes:

hypothetically a hypothetical human could obtain as much knowledge as a hypothetical creator.

Phat writes:

I think you are either overestimating hypothetical humans ability to create or you are underestimating the power...never mind possibility...of a hypothetical Designer apart from humanity.

Why are hypothetical humans any more (or less) limited than hypothetical creators?

Phat writes:

The intellect without acknowledgement of a Designer is outside of communion. The intellect that acknowledges the possibility of a Designer is in communion. Problem?

Well as an initial problem that leaves someone who acknowledges the philosophical possibility of a creator but who sees no reason to think such a thing actually exists in some sort of communion limbo.

But if you are genuinely in communion with some sort of superior being why not demonstrate this ability of yours in a testable way (e.g. that described above)?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 01-15-2013 2:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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