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Author Topic:   The $5,000,000 ID Research Challenge
tesla
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 121 of 285 (684063)
12-15-2012 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Son
12-15-2012 4:12 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
See message 117.

It doesn't matter. The conversations here are not about the truth, unless that truth fits the ideology of the long time posters here.

I have outlined enough to show where I.D. is valid. I recognize people have different versions of what I.D. science is, and how to go about exploring the potentials.

I firmly believe that one day (if the human race does not go extinct) that greater consciousness will be found--and even a true concept of God, and the higher emotion felt and relayed as 'The holy Ghost'--will better be understood. Regardless of how many in science or otherwise choose to ignore the significance and importance of understanding our humanity, and the universe and the connections to each other, enough people do. And I believe those connections will be made. And if in that 'God' is found, I will not be surprised.

I'm tired of the conversations here anymore. It's just not productive to go in circles with those who refuse to open their minds. It's even more aggravating when those close minded accuse the open minded of being closed minded. So, I'm going to bring the conversation to its end, as far as my contributions to it.

God is, or God is not? Was humanity a result of a design by a greater intelligence? Was the universe and all we know of it a result of a decision? Maybe one day we will know. But with current technological limitations, it remains a potential.

Dream deeper, because life is too short to bullshit ourselves through it and be satisfied.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Son, posted 12-15-2012 4:12 AM Son has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Son, posted 12-15-2012 12:48 PM tesla has responded
 Message 127 by Taq, posted 12-17-2012 11:08 AM tesla has responded
 Message 144 by Drosophilla, posted 12-31-2012 12:50 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17158
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 122 of 285 (684068)
12-15-2012 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by tesla
12-14-2012 8:09 PM


tesla writes:

I'm suggesting improving scientific capabilities so that tests could be run.


You've got a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem there. Before science can invent the machinery to do the test, you have to be specific about what you want to test. For the umpteenth time, that's what this thread is all about - for you to propose specific tests and specific equipment to do the tests with. If you need a machine to detect "design waves" then tell us what their properties are and we'll put the lab boys and girls to work on it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:09 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by tesla, posted 12-22-2012 11:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 123 of 285 (684070)
12-15-2012 11:36 AM


Discovery Institute's approach
The Discovery Institute has a budget of several million dollars a year, so what do they do?

They hire lawyers and PR flacks.

Rather than building a research facility they built a propaganda mill.

Hmmmmmm.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


  
Son
Member (Idle past 2060 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 124 of 285 (684074)
12-15-2012 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by tesla
12-15-2012 10:44 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
You may have had the impression you showed something, but there's nothing in what you wrote that shows ID as a valid science. "Dig deeper" could be said about any theory, that's why it's not proof that you have a scientific theory.

For example :
"Dragon is, or Dragon is not? Was humanity a result of a fart by a constipated dragon? Was the universe and all we know of it a result of a diarrhea? Maybe one day we will know. But with current technological limitations, it remains a potential. "

See, I just changed some words and with your "tests", it seems an hypothesis as valid as yours.

If that's all you have to say, I guess we can conclude that ID is not science since you refuse to provide any experiment that would verify an ID hypothesis (and no, throwing random experiments without explaining why they relate to ID is not valid).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by tesla, posted 12-15-2012 10:44 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by tesla, posted 12-23-2012 12:11 AM Son has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18806
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 125 of 285 (684079)
12-15-2012 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by tesla
12-15-2012 10:14 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
tesla writes:

Why would you hire a director to act, if he's a director?

I didn't hire you. You hired yourself for this thread and started writing checks that your knowledge can't cash. You're trying to ante up using worthless scrip. You're an embarrassment to your namesake. If you're not up to the demands of this thread maybe you should watch from the sidelines instead of taking up space with excuses.

What is so hard for you about typing "intelligent design brain research" into a browser to see what ideas are out there? And what is the origin of your perverse idea that others should research and defend your ideas for you?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by tesla, posted 12-15-2012 10:14 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by tesla, posted 12-23-2012 12:17 AM Percy has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 126 of 285 (684359)
12-17-2012 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by tesla
12-14-2012 8:27 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
Hypothesis: a greater consciousness exists on another planet.

Experiment: fly to other planets and see.

Hypothesis: information of a greater consciousness can communicate long distances.

Experiment: find a common algorithm based on how human consciousness reads and writes data for dreams, communication, thoughts and the like, then scan all frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum to see if there is any similar coding.

Hypothesis: We can create a greater consciousness than our own if we build a computer designed based on the brain, but make it much larger, and input a lot more knowledge and energy. a true AI.

Experiment: sink money into AI research (programmers etc.), model the human brains communication methods. Tons of options here.

How does any of this relate to the design of life over the last 4.5 billion years?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by tesla, posted 12-14-2012 8:27 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by tesla, posted 12-23-2012 12:20 AM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 127 of 285 (684361)
12-17-2012 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by tesla
12-15-2012 10:44 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
It doesn't matter. The conversations here are not about the truth, unless that truth fits the ideology of the long time posters here.

No, the conversation is about science. You have not shown how ID of life can be tested.

I have outlined enough to show where I.D. is valid. I recognize people have different versions of what I.D. science is, and how to go about exploring the potentials.

Science is not about "exploring potentials". Science is about testing hypotheses.

I'm tired of the conversations here anymore. It's just not productive to go in circles with those who refuse to open their minds.

I think we have very different concepts of what science is. You are pushing a much more philosophical approach. I am asking for a scientific approach. That is why we are talking past each other. Since this thread is asking for a scientific approach I would hope that you would try to produce testable hypotheses that actually relate to the design of life. If you want to start a thread focused on a more philosophical approach I would be happy to participate and try to mold my posts towards the questions or challenges that you present.

It's even more aggravating when those close minded accuse the open minded of being closed minded.

I am very open minded to evidence and testable hypotheses. Have any?

Dream deeper, because life is too short to bullshit ourselves through it and be satisfied.

That's exactly what dreams are, bullshitting ourselves into thinking that we have an explanation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by tesla, posted 12-15-2012 10:44 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by tesla, posted 12-23-2012 12:23 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 128 of 285 (685456)
12-22-2012 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
12-15-2012 11:31 AM


Chicken or the Egg?
You've got a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem there. Before science can invent the machinery to do the test, you have to be specific about what you want to test. For the umpteenth time, that's what this thread is all about - for you to propose specific tests and specific equipment to do the tests with. If you need a machine to detect "design waves" then tell us what their properties are and we'll put the lab boys and girls to work on it.

Are you in the field of brain science? You see the robotic arm a woman is moving with an implant? Here’s what I want done. I want the language of the brain understood to the point you can watch dreams on a screen, and even have a meter to show emotional feelings connected to the dream etc.

Now...I also mentioned space travel. Let’s go the speed of light. Are you a knowledgeable physicist? If so, then you will know where to start? No? Well then, who does? (If you are knowledgeable physicists, I’ll engage in a discussion of solar sails and frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum, shielding, etc.)

See, your beating the dead horse, and I've already explained where to start looking, and that I am not educated enough in those fields to be designing such experiments. I know the end game starts with first gaining better scientific capabilities to make looking possible. With current technology and knowledge, looking directly is impossible.

Should I save that last paragraph to just cut and paste for the next time I get this response? It’s a common one.

Oh yeah, chicken and the egg, yeah, that is the question I’m proposing we answer.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 12-15-2012 11:31 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by NoNukes, posted 12-27-2012 9:07 AM tesla has responded
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 01-14-2013 11:43 AM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 129 of 285 (685458)
12-23-2012 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Son
12-15-2012 12:48 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
Since efficiency is a problem with space travel, I would suggest the following experiments be carried out:

Take a piece of tempered copper, and shoot it with every frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum, find which frequency heats the copper with the least energy cost.

Repeat that experiment on everything.

(Tempered copper is used in a technology that uses infra-red light to heat the copper, and heat rooms to a comfortable temperature without combustion, and cheaply.)

Report energy in joules, Temperature in Kelvin. Joules in, Joules out. Residence time on heating needs to be known. How fast it reaches a temperature, how long it takes to dissipate etc. basically you’ll need a bomb to run the experiments in. Q=MCpDT, but we also need to run some statistical analysis of heating time and durations of exposure etc. because 500 may =500 (energy in=energy out) but the places the energy goes because of different residence times will mean one 500 may be a better 500 based on where we want the final 500 to be.

Start there and get back to me. It’s related to space travel, which is related to greater extraterrestrial being, which is related to I.D. research, and therefore is I.D. science.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Son, posted 12-15-2012 12:48 PM Son has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Son, posted 12-23-2012 4:27 AM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 130 of 285 (685460)
12-23-2012 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Percy
12-15-2012 1:32 PM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
I didn't hire you.

I was invited. What I’m saying is relevant, but you do not have enough brains to see it? So before you going spewing how someone is doing no good being here, recognize that so far you have offered nothing but naysaying and pessimism. Well if scientists think science is done exploring the things we don't know, then science is dead, and we need some real scientists.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Percy, posted 12-15-2012 1:32 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 12-23-2012 8:08 AM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 131 of 285 (685461)
12-23-2012 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Taq
12-17-2012 11:03 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
Because if a greater consciousness existed, it would find more than we can and see things we cannot see. So we'll know more about the last 4.5 billion years, if higher consciousness could even get us to understand it. But it’s still and interesting and potential thing.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Taq, posted 12-17-2012 11:03 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Taq, posted 01-02-2013 6:19 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 132 of 285 (685463)
12-23-2012 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Taq
12-17-2012 11:08 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
That's exactly what dreams are, bullshitting ourselves into thinking that we have an explanation.

So you admit you DON'T know? good. now since we like science lets research what we don't know, and think we know, and find out what we don't know, y'know?


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Taq, posted 12-17-2012 11:08 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Son
Member (Idle past 2060 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


(1)
Message 133 of 285 (685467)
12-23-2012 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by tesla
12-23-2012 12:11 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
Saying it is related to ID science oesnt make it so. For example, X-ray diffraction is what allowed people to deduce the structure of the DNA but even you should be able to see that nowhere is diffraction considered a part of evolutionnary science. Another example, letting 2 balls of the same form but of different weight allow us to deduce some properties of gravity, surely even you would agree that knowing how to make balls isn't part of the science behind the theory of gravity.

So even if space travel was related to ID, your experiment would still be irrevelant. Moreover, you still haven't shown how space travel would be related to ID as opposed to the dragon fart theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by tesla, posted 12-23-2012 12:11 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by tesla, posted 12-24-2012 10:38 PM Son has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18806
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 134 of 285 (685504)
12-23-2012 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by tesla
12-23-2012 12:17 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
Hi Tesla,

The way to deflect the criticism being directed your way is to answer the question everyone is asking you: How would research into space travel and the brain relate to ID?

Your current answer, "I don't know, I'm the wrong person to answer this question, but I know that it would relate to ID, and you, not me, should go off and find the answers, and if you don't then you, not me, have offered nothing and are filled with naysaying and pessimism," is why you're getting all the criticism.

Let me ask you a couple rhetorical questions: How does one know that answers one has never seen exist? Who is responsible for supporting claims, the person making them or the person hearing them?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by tesla, posted 12-23-2012 12:17 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by tesla, posted 12-24-2012 10:17 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
tesla
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 135 of 285 (685676)
12-24-2012 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Percy
12-23-2012 8:08 AM


Re: spend it on space exploration/ Brain research.
How would research into space travel and the brain relate to ID?

See? there it is again. I should have cut and paste the answer. *stomps foot*

ok, since your full of hot air:

The Nobels are the most prestigious prizes in the science world, awarded for physics, chemistry and medicine. One of the recipients of this year's medicine prize, Prof John Gurdon, relished the story of a poor school report by his biology teacher, who branded his scientific ambitions as "a waste of time"


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Percy, posted 12-23-2012 8:08 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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