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Author Topic:   The US Gov't is Guilty of Murder
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 3 of 318 (671986)
09-01-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dogmafood
09-01-2012 9:26 AM


Dogmafood writes:
How is it possible that the world allows this?
How would they stop it?
That isn't a rhetorical question. What steps would they take?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dogmafood, posted 09-01-2012 9:26 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Dogmafood, posted 09-01-2012 9:45 PM ringo has replied
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 09-03-2012 2:31 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 318 (672165)
09-04-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dogmafood
09-01-2012 9:45 PM


Re: No Maple Syrup For You!
Dogmafood writes:
Canada alone could seriously mess with their energy supply not to mention their grass and maple syrup.
"Canada" doesn't control the flow of energy from Canada to the U.S. Even if the federal government was inclined to proclaim an embargo, it has little or no power to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dogmafood, posted 09-01-2012 9:45 PM Dogmafood has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 68 of 318 (672191)
09-04-2012 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tangle
09-04-2012 4:34 PM


Tangle writes:
It hasn't invaded Pakistan, it hasn't declared war on Pakistan but it has used drones to kill people inside Pakistan.
An invasion is complex, expensive and internationally controversial. A declaration of war is a diplomatic nicety with little connection to reality. A simple act of war is a useful compromise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2012 4:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2012 5:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 74 of 318 (672201)
09-04-2012 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tangle
09-04-2012 5:27 PM


Tangle writes:
I'm sure you are aware of the hypocracy exhibited by this behaviour.
When you're killing people, whether justifiably or not, a little hypocrisy is just icing on the cake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2012 5:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2012 5:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 79 of 318 (672207)
09-04-2012 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tangle
09-04-2012 5:41 PM


Tangle writes:
Sure, just don't expect to be admired or liked for it.
The U.S. probably isn't going to be liked or admired internationally no matter what they do. It just makes sense to do things as efficiently as possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2012 5:41 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2012 6:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 318 (672212)
09-04-2012 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
09-04-2012 6:02 PM


Tangle writes:
Well that's a good way to rationalise any action I guess. "they hate us anyway, stuff it."
I'm not trying to rationalize anything. I'm just pointing out how silly all of the puffed-up outrage is. Shooting back may not be the best way to respond to terrorism but if they're going to do it, drones seem to be a better way than either of the alternatives that you mentioned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 09-04-2012 6:02 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 99 of 318 (672360)
09-07-2012 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Dogmafood
09-07-2012 9:58 AM


Dogmafood writes:
-The battlefield is expanded to incorporate the whole world.
In a way, that's a good thing. There's no escaping across borders any more. If the Austro-Hungarians had had drones, World War One might have been averted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Dogmafood, posted 09-07-2012 9:58 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Dogmafood, posted 09-07-2012 3:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 101 of 318 (672390)
09-07-2012 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Dogmafood
09-07-2012 3:45 PM


Re: Jurisdiction
Dogmafood writes:
The foul part is claiming that all of the evidence is secret and dismissing the collateral damage as a necessary price to pay.
The goalposts seem to be sliding down a slippery slope.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Dogmafood, posted 09-07-2012 3:45 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Dogmafood, posted 09-07-2012 4:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 103 of 318 (672395)
09-07-2012 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Dogmafood
09-07-2012 4:08 PM


Re: Jurisdiction
Dogmafood writes:
I have always been talking about the innocent people that are getting killed.
In the OP, it was the innocent until proven guilty. Now it's collateral damage - not really the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Dogmafood, posted 09-07-2012 4:08 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Dogmafood, posted 09-07-2012 5:00 PM ringo has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 158 of 318 (672929)
09-12-2012 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Dogmafood
09-12-2012 8:29 AM


Re: Accidents
Dogmafood writes:
I have said repeatedly that I think we should stop allowing our armies to 'accidentally' kill people outside of any recognizable battlefield. Does this equate with disbanding our armies?
You remind me of the line from Dr. Strangelove, "You can't fight here. This is the War Room."
I think your idea of fencing off the battlefields and plastering everywhere else with "No Fighting" signs is at least as silly as disbanding armies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Dogmafood, posted 09-12-2012 8:29 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by dronestar, posted 09-12-2012 1:31 PM ringo has replied
 Message 189 by Dogmafood, posted 09-12-2012 9:36 PM ringo has replied
 Message 196 by onifre, posted 09-13-2012 8:57 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 163 of 318 (672935)
09-12-2012 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by dronestar
09-12-2012 1:31 PM


Re: Accidents
dronester writes:
But surely you don't also believe international laws, signed treaties, and the Geneva conventions silly?
Do any of them require playing only on designated battlefields?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by dronestar, posted 09-12-2012 1:31 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by dronestar, posted 09-12-2012 3:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 166 of 318 (672940)
09-12-2012 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by dronestar
09-12-2012 2:52 PM


Re: I know a war crime when I see it.
dronester writes:
Bush Jr. and Tony Blair said 9/11 happened because "the terrorists hate our freedoms". Is that what you believe?
I believe that Bush Jr. and Tony Blair hate our freedoms because they're the ones that took them away.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by dronestar, posted 09-12-2012 2:52 PM dronestar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 169 of 318 (672944)
09-12-2012 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by dronestar
09-12-2012 3:36 PM


Re: Accidents
dronester writes:
There are many rules of engagement. Not bombing a hospital. Not torturing children. Not using a disproportionate amount of force. Not causing collective punishment for the many because of only the few.
None of those appear to apply to drone attacks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by dronestar, posted 09-12-2012 3:36 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by dronestar, posted 09-12-2012 3:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 174 of 318 (672951)
09-12-2012 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by dronestar
09-12-2012 3:58 PM


Re: Accidents
dronester writes:
Not using a disproportionate amount of force...
One of the reasons for using drones is that they minimize the amount of force (as well as risk). The only way to use less force would be with snipers.
dronester writes:
... not causing collective punishment for the many because of only the few...
If the collateral casualties typically outnumbered the targeted casualties, you might have a trivial mathematical point. On the other hand, if people come to understand that it's a bad idea to stand next to terrorists, that mght be a good thing.
dronester writes:
... nor not harming children?
Oh, it's "harming" children now, is it? I responded to "torturing children". Nail down those wandering goalposts, please.
dronester writes:
Well, then how about just targeting civilians?
That's been covered already in the thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by dronestar, posted 09-12-2012 3:58 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by dronestar, posted 09-12-2012 4:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 179 of 318 (672957)
09-12-2012 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by dronestar
09-12-2012 4:38 PM


Re: Accidents
dronester writes:
If you are desperate to score some kind of technical victory, I'll be happy to concede for you.
You respond to me and then you go off on a tangent evading your own issue and you call me desperate?
Let's back up and try this again: I said to Dogmafood that painting out-of-bounds lines around battlefields is silly. You asked if I thought international law was silly. I said not unless it involves painting lines around battlefields. That's where you made a sharp turn and started regurgitating old news about rules of engagement.
Now, do you have a point to make that's somewhat related to anything I've said?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by dronestar, posted 09-12-2012 4:38 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by dronestar, posted 09-13-2012 8:48 AM ringo has replied

  
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