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Author | Topic: The US Gov't is Guilty of Murder | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dronestar Member Posts: 1464 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
RingO writes: The killer is the guy who kills the innocent babies. I suggested that I would rather have him armed with a knife than an assault rifle. Straggler asked why we don't just stop him from killing and I reminded him that the killer is the U.S. government and military so trying to "stop" them would be like King Canute trying to stop the tide from coming in. That may be pragmatic, but I agree with Straggler, that is a defeatist stance. And it will be poor comfort if a next 9/11 happens because of this action.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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dronester writes:
Defeated by the tides? Yes. Get used to it. Devote your energy to minimizing the damage.
That may be pragmatic, but I agree with Straggler, that is a defeatist stance.
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Dogmafood Member Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
No, that's exactly backwards. Militaries have the legal right to operate in other countries. Police have no legal right to operate anywhere except their own jurisdictions. If the military has the right to blow someone up, wherever they might be, then, surely, they also have the right to arrest that person. If not then I would suggest that we give it to them.
I think restrained, surgical strikes against specific targets represent a higher ideal of civilization than the vast destruction and loss of human life that accompanies traditional infantry warfare. Who doesn't? And you must mean 'surgical' like the way you would do surgery with a spoon.
Soldiers don't shoot to wound, but to kill. Directly targeting key personnel to disrupt enemy organization is a tactic that goes back to Sun Tsu. Yeah I was surprised to find out that it is against the law too.
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Dogmafood Member Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
But the only alternatives you have provided are either: a) Never go to war b) Force the army to disband (both of which have similar results). Nonsense. You underestimate our incredible ability to adapt to new conditions. During the cold war when the CIA needed to dispatch someone they didn't use missiles too much did they?
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jar Member (Idle past 99 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If the military has the right to blow someone up, wherever they might be, then, surely, they also have the right to arrest that person. If not then I would suggest that we give it to them. Sorry but that is way beyond our capability. We cannot give the military the right to arrest anyone not already within US jurisdiction.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dogmafood Member Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Unfortunately, Hitler had about ten million Germans to stop us from arresting him and the closest thing we had to a drone was a carpet-bombing Lancaster. Didn't someone already mention Godwins rule? But yeah that is why it wasn't an issue then and it isn't an issue now. For clarity then would you say that a battlefield requires no geographic boundaries?
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Dogmafood Member Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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Defeated by the tides? Yes. Get used to it. Only if you are a defeatist.
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Dogmafood Member Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
We cannot give the military the right to arrest anyone not already within US jurisdiction. Yet you have no problem giving them the right to blow that person up?
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jar Member (Idle past 99 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
That is something that is legal.
But don't try to tell me what I think. Deal with YOUR position, I'll take care of my position.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
You have to remember that in NoNukes' mind, all soldiers are murderous bastards that launch missiles at children while laughing maniacally. This is decidedly not my position. I did serve in the military and I carried around weapons of mass destruction with the intention of using them when necessary. I haven't said, expressed, or implied, a single thing about how soldiers ought to behave. I see the smiley face in your post, but I don't see anything the least bit funny thereto attached.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw
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Straggler Member (Idle past 325 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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And you didn’t even show a picture of Tony Blair embracing Gaddaffi.
They should warn us that whether someone is officially labelled as a terrorist or a freedom fighter at any given time is largely a matter of political expedience.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 325 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: We cannot give the military the right to arrest anyone not already within US jurisdiction. Dogma writes: Yet you have no problem giving them the right to blow that person up? jar writes: That is something that is legal. Legality aside - Is it right.....?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 325 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
CS writes: But the spirit of the law is against just blowing the shit out of a region willy-nilly without even trying to reach some kind of military goal. These drone strikes are not that. OK. Let's follow the logic of that. Let’s consider a mirror-image situation. The Iranian government decides to label a US citizen as a terrorist. The person in question has been responsible for a number of attacks in which Iranian civilians have been killed. Whether you agree that the label of terrorist is accurate or not there can be little doubt in the sincerity of the belief that if this person continues to exist further Iranian civilian casualties will occur as a result. So the Iranian government sends in a drone. The attack is on US soil and involves the apartment block in which the intended target lives. The attack kills the intended target. It also kills a number of other people in the apartment block including some kids, a pregnant woman and an old couple. Numerous others lose limbs or are otherwise horrifically injured. When asked about the attack the Iranian government says that whilst the civilian casualties are regrettable they are a price worth paying for ending the life of the intended target whose future actions would undoubtably have resulted in more Iranian deaths. they say the action was militarily justified. Was the drone attack justified in your view? Is it, in your view, morally different from the sort of attacks being advocated as justified and necessary here?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 325 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler writes: Whether it has any practical effect or not I think somebody should at least be pointing out where the moral high ground is here. Even if nobody can rightfully claim it we should at least try and identify where it is. Ringo writes: I'm pointing at an attainable high ground. You are pointing at the status quo. If you think the present situation is as high as the moral ground can pragmatically get I would suggest you have taken pragmatism to a level that is indistiguishable from defeatism.... But aside from this rather overly-accepting approach your heart seems to be in the right place.
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jar Member (Idle past 99 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is no one right or wrong answer. Each incident is unique and individual and the decision of right or wrong will depend on the threat, costs and reward in that particular incident.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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