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Author Topic:   An Alternate Creation Theory: Genic Energy
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 181 (672570)
09-09-2012 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Son Goku
09-09-2012 9:30 AM


Re: Not enough.
Newtonian mechanics accounts for the bulk of the advance of the perihelion, with the advance itself being a relatively small effect. About 50" out of 5600" seconds of arc per century of perihelion advance are explained by differences in GR and Newtonian mechanics.

But those 50 seconds of arc are real and are not explained by Newtonian mechanics. There were some attempts to make ad hoc modifications to Newtonian gravity, but thosse modifications fail to explain the orbits of Venus and Earth properly. GR gravitational theory works for all of the inner planets.

This science buff is all bluff. He cannot find a Newtonian explanation for the otbit of Mercury that works.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Son Goku, posted 09-09-2012 9:30 AM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-09-2012 3:46 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 50 by Son Goku, posted 09-09-2012 4:06 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 52 by Admin, posted 09-09-2012 5:06 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 181 (672585)
09-09-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by TheRestOfUs
09-09-2012 3:46 PM


Re: Not good enough.
Remove pointless erroneus response

Edited by NoNukes, : In error


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-09-2012 3:46 PM TheRestOfUs has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 181 (672615)
09-09-2012 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by TheRestOfUs
09-09-2012 9:54 PM


He predicted that blue supergiant stars are much more likely to go supernova where the conventional view was that only red supergiants did so.

The conventional view is that a star may transition between being a red or blue super giant and that they spend more time being blue than red. I don't see how a single example of an exploding blue super giant overturns that theory.

His view is that contrary to conventional belief blue super giants are often among the oldest of stars

The conventional view is that blue super giants and red super giants are formed from large stars that have very short life spans compared to Sol. The oldest, and most numerous stars in the universe would be little bitty red stars and brown dwarfs that will never form super novas.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-09-2012 9:54 PM TheRestOfUs has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-10-2012 12:35 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 181 (672616)
09-10-2012 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by TheRestOfUs
09-09-2012 10:12 PM


Encouragement...
I don't think every one of your posts is a gem, but I do think you are at least citing some experts, and I am reluctant to simply dismiss those citations as the work of cranks without giving a scientific explanation.

I also note that you aren't doing what a number of others have insisted on, namely simply insulting and dismissing the resident physicists out of hand as do some others. (Not going to name any names.) I hope you'll stick around.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-09-2012 10:12 PM TheRestOfUs has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 181 (672652)
09-10-2012 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by TheRestOfUs
09-10-2012 11:32 AM


Concept 9. Supernova Precursor Stars - prevailing concept (1985):

Prediction No. 9 (1985): Subquantum kinetics predicts that supernovae are produced not by red giant stars, but by blue supergiant stars

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1101.1298v2.pdf

The prediction was wrong. Although SN1987 did form from a blue supergiant, the prediction that only blue super giants can form super novas is definitely wrong.

Here is a paper. You may recognize one of the authors, Dr. Filippenko, whose Cal Berkeley based team has discovered more recent supernovas than any other group.

"Peculiar Type II Supernovae from Blue Supergiants" [2011]

Io K. W. Kleiser, Dovi Poznanski, Daniel Kasen, Timothy R. Young, Ryan Chornock, Alexei V. Filippenko, Peter Challis, Mohan Ganeshalingam, Robert P. Kirshner, Weidong Li, Thomas Matheson, Peter E. Nugent, Jeffrey M. Silverman

quote:
The vast majority of Type II supernovae (SNe) are produced by red supergiants (RSGs), but SN 1987A revealed that blue supergiants (BSGs) can produce members of this class as well, albeit with some peculiar properties.....

Adding a similar object to the sample, SN 2005ci, we derive a rate of about 2% of the core-collapse rate for this loosely defined class of BSG explosions.


quote:
Over the past decade,  20 pre-explosion locations of SNe II-P have been directly imaged with the Hubble Space Telescope or deep ground-based images, yielding fi ve detections of progenitor stars, all of which were red supergiants (RSGs)

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-10-2012 11:32 AM TheRestOfUs has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-10-2012 2:19 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 115 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-10-2012 8:04 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 181 (672656)
09-10-2012 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by JonF
09-10-2012 9:18 AM


Yup (except perhaps for the surprise part, I find no trace of that). So what?

Apparently it was a surprise to many that a blue super giant would explode as a Type II supernova. But Blue super giant is only a temporary stage. Blue super giants become red super giants. It is thought that such a thing happened to Betelgeuese.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by JonF, posted 09-10-2012 9:18 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 181 (672684)
09-10-2012 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by TheRestOfUs
09-10-2012 12:35 AM


When a star reaches a critical mass of about approx 0.45 solar mass nuclear fusion ignites and begins to suppliment its genic energy output

What is "genic energy" and what is the evidence that such energy exists?

He believes that those small red dwarfs are often among the youngest of stars and are far more numerous than stars like our Sol and larger red and blue super giants which are often older.

Indeed Laviolette believes that red and blue super giants transition from blue to red and back again due to a number of factors. (outer cooler atmosphere being shed to reveal a hotter inner atmosphere.).

I don't care what Laviolette believes, but instead am interested in what he or others can demonstrate. I don't even care about the state of science in 1985. Conventional science (i.e. non genic energy science) is that stars that are red giants top out at about 10 times the mass of the sun. The sun is expected to become a red giant, but not a red super giant, and is not expected to become a super nova.

You have yet to show a "genic energy" based prediction that is correct in a situation where non genic-energy, regular science is wrong. Your super nova prediction does not qualify.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-10-2012 12:35 AM TheRestOfUs has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-10-2012 4:09 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 181 (672689)
09-10-2012 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by TheRestOfUs
09-10-2012 2:19 PM


Is there a difference between red giants and red supergiants?

Yes there is. But the convention is not that red giants become super novas. Our sun is predicted to become a red giant before cooling to a white dwarf.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-10-2012 2:19 PM TheRestOfUs has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 118 of 181 (672733)
09-10-2012 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by TheRestOfUs
09-10-2012 8:04 PM


I found something that might answer your finding that 5 Supernovae were found to have had red supergiant precursors. It may be a matter of the scenario I described earlier where red switches to blue and back again.

Apparently I have completely and utterly failed to make my point.

Understanding how blue or red super giants become type II super novas does not require genic energy and therefore SN1987A is not evidence supporting LaViolette's work. Expressed another way, there is no reason to believe that genic energy even exists and thus no reason to indulge in fantasies about how wrong conventional astrophysics and cosmology are if such energy did exist.

If LaViolette thinks that genic energy causes some stars to produce type II supernova for reasons other than a process involving using up materials to fuse, where is his evidence?

LaViolette may have not been precise enough in that prediction he did nail it with SN 1987A

But a super human result is what you are advertising. Your claim is that he has predicted something no else could have predicted using convention science not based on subquantum kinetics and genic energy, with genic energy being something for which there is no evidence. The sole reason you have for accepting LaViolette's work is that it is an alternative to conventional physics gives results you are motivated to reject.

I am not so motivated, so what is a reason for me to believe LaViolette is not yet another crank?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-10-2012 8:04 PM TheRestOfUs has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-11-2012 12:20 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 133 of 181 (672808)
09-11-2012 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by TheRestOfUs
09-11-2012 12:20 PM


Conventional explanations fail to account for the energy released by a collapsing star that has presumably ""run out of fuel".

Take for example Eta Carinae. Eta Carinae (approx 150 Solar Masses) has a luminosity according to LaViolette "of about 4 x 10 to the 6th L (Solar Luminosities).,

First of all "according to LaViolette" is not any kind of argument when we are discussing whether he is right. In short this is a issue raised by LaViolette and conveniently answered by filling in genic energy. "LaViolette said so" is not evidence of a gap in conventional theory to close with a missing energy source.

More importantly Eta Carinae is not a collapsing star. It is a big blue variable star, or more accurately a star system including a humongous star and at least one smaller but still humongous star. Conventional explanations for its brightness don't leave a gap that needs a genic energy fill in.

Neither of the other two references you cited deal with super nova, and there is not enough context for me to tell even whether they raise issues that are without a current explanation. Two sources are articles about 30-40 years old, and the third citation is to a twenty plus year old Scientific American article. Do either of them reflect the current state of knowledge or lack thereof regarding sources of energy? Well that's for you to show.

disagree that predicting that blue supergiants going supernova does not confirm or require a concept of a separate power source, (genic energy).

You have yet to present anything like an argument for this idea. I haven't seen any reasonable response to messages from me or PaulK on this issue. You haven't even shown that conventional astrophysics (from the last few years and not from 20-30 years ago cannot account for exploding red and blue super giants. Nobody thinks that red giants explode as type II supernovas without becoming one of the known pre-cursors first.

Let me ask you a personal question. Do you believe that you have enough personal knowledge of the subject to be able to identify gaps in current explanation of science requiring genic energy, or are you simply taking LaViolette's word that there are gaps.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-11-2012 12:20 PM TheRestOfUs has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-11-2012 3:09 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 136 of 181 (672821)
09-11-2012 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by TheRestOfUs
09-11-2012 3:09 PM


No neutrino gap.
I've already mentioned the neutrino gap in regards to our Sun. I heard about this myself years before I read LaViolette's books and wondered what it might mean.

Perhaps I can save you the trouble of worrying about this issue. The case of the missing neutrinos was solved at least 10 years ago, and the answer was anticipated maybe about 20 years ago. It turns out that there are three kinds of neutrinos produced by stellar fusion and that those detectors from 20 years ago only detected one of the three types. It has since been verified that the sun produces the expected number of neutrinos.

Bye-bye genic energy? Or at least there is one less place to find verification for the concept.

In a sense, your arguments are a "genic energy of the gaps" argument. You (and perhaps LaViolette) are looking at descriptions of old problems and filing in genic energy without looking to see if the problem has been filled in by conventional science (i.e. current science). Genic energy fits into the gap until conventional science and investigation advance to fill in the gap and push genic energy aside.

LaViolette can be forgiven if he made his predictions contemporary with the problems he identifies (at least in those cases where he is correct about the state of science when he made his prediction). But if you want to convince someone today that LaViolette was right back in 1978 or 1985, then LaViolette's predictions must be compared to current science and not to whatever scientist thought in 1978.

As an aside, your posts would be a little less confusing if you put my text inside of a [qs=NoNukes] [ /qs] set. Use a separate set of quotes for your own text from previous messsages.

TheRestOfUs writes:

Let me answer your last question first. No. I don't believe I have enough personal knowledge myself to adequately fill in the gaps.

I did not ask you if you had enough knowledge to fill in the gaps. That's way too high a standard, and neither you nor I would meet that standard. Instead I ask whether you have enough understanding to have an informed opinion of whether there is or is not a gap that needs to be filled in with "genic energy".

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-11-2012 3:09 PM TheRestOfUs has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-11-2012 3:59 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 181 (672823)
09-11-2012 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by TheRestOfUs
09-11-2012 3:09 PM


One more point
Jovian planets' frozen moons that do not have elipitical orbits and therefore wouldn't be subject to the tidal gravitational forces

Tidal forces do not require eliptical orbits.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-11-2012 3:09 PM TheRestOfUs has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 181 (673018)
09-13-2012 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by foreveryoung
09-11-2012 11:51 PM


Atheists and anti creationists get to define what is and what isn't evidence around here. I think every claim that something has supporting evidence should be supported with reasoning for the claim.

This is a valid position to take. But I fail to see the relevance to this thread, particularly after TheRestOfUs has admitted to being wrong based on being shown evidence.

It might be fun to discuss what would happen if there really is "genic energy" but the discussion would have some rather goofy constraints. We'd have to ignore things like the fact that there are no missing solar neutrinos, and that we already expect and observe red super giants to become supernova.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by foreveryoung, posted 09-11-2012 11:51 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 164 of 181 (673173)
09-15-2012 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by TheRestOfUs
09-14-2012 5:50 PM


Hmmm. Could it be they are still not sure that nuclear fusion is the sole source of energy powering the Sun?

I tell my kids this all of the time. Beware of questions referring to "they" without any clear antecedent.

I applaud the effort. But consider this. The energy balance of the sun is a very complex thing. Most of the suns energy is generated form a relatively tiny part of the core. Photons can take on the order of thousands to millions of years to leave the core and make it to the solar surface. On the other hand, neutrinos are expected to escape immediately.

Even if all of the energy generated by the sun is from fusion energy, small imbalances are completely consistent with small mismatches between neutrino and photons received at earth because of that millions of years time difference. Small mismatches between the number of neutrinos and the gammas will be very revealing and are worthy of study even if there is no genic energy.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by TheRestOfUs, posted 09-14-2012 5:50 PM TheRestOfUs has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 181 (673851)
09-24-2012 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Alfred Maddenstein
09-23-2012 8:25 PM


Re: Not enough.
Any musings on Genic Energy? Do you believe that there is yet to be explained energy coming from the sun?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 09-23-2012 8:25 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 09-24-2012 10:15 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
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