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Author Topic:   Is God okay with the planet being trashed?
Ken Fabos
Member (Idle past 330 days)
Posts: 51
From: Australia
Joined: 05-09-2010


Message 1 of 29 (672727)
09-10-2012 9:53 PM


With environmentalism routinely attacked as "Green Religion", I am prompted to ask where various Christians (and other religious) stand on issues like loss of biodiversity, climate change, environmentally destructive practices and the intersection of religion, ethics and environment.

Clearly there is a broad sweep of views out there - from believing that God's Creation should be cared for and husbanded to believing that Jesus will only return when the world is alight with war, evil and environmental degradation - "After the Last Tree is Felled, Christ Will Come Back" (James G. Watt - Ronald Reagan's Interior Secretary) and therefore to be welcomed.

Is climate change a sideshow or is is our response to it central to God's relationship to humanity? Has God given us the minimum we need to make informed ethical choices - along with the freedom to choose to completely screw things up, not only for ourselves but for future generations? Will God intervene if we choose wrong or leave us and future generations to suck it up? And is God okay with influential religious voices counting themselves competent to do the assessing and making the choice on behalf of their flock, supplanting individual choice with their own? Would that be a sin of the leaders or of the followers or both?


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 09-10-2012 10:11 PM Ken Fabos has not yet responded
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 Message 5 by GDR, posted 09-10-2012 11:51 PM Ken Fabos has not yet responded
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-11-2012 10:45 AM Ken Fabos has not yet responded
 Message 7 by hooah212002, posted 09-11-2012 11:05 AM Ken Fabos has not yet responded
 Message 8 by bluescat48, posted 09-11-2012 12:35 PM Ken Fabos has not yet responded
 Message 9 by 1.61803, posted 09-11-2012 2:46 PM Ken Fabos has not yet responded
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 09-11-2012 4:31 PM Ken Fabos has not yet responded
 Message 24 by Coyote, posted 09-12-2012 10:00 PM Ken Fabos has responded

  
Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 29 (672729)
09-10-2012 10:02 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Is God okay with the planet being trashed? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 29 (672731)
09-10-2012 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ken Fabos
09-10-2012 9:53 PM


Not sure what you mean by "the planet being trashed" or what God has to do with the question?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 29 (672736)
09-10-2012 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ken Fabos
09-10-2012 9:53 PM


We know what the right thing is; and for that reason we should do it. GOD is irrelevant.

Love your enemies!

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 Message 1 by Ken Fabos, posted 09-10-2012 9:53 PM Ken Fabos has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4782
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 5 of 29 (672740)
09-10-2012 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ken Fabos
09-10-2012 9:53 PM


My understanding of the message of the Scriptures is that the care of the planet is of huge and eternal importance. The Christian message is that our dimension and Gods heavenly dimension will be brought together in the renewal of all things. In the interim this planet is our responsibility and how it is treated will have eternal consequences.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 6 of 29 (672777)
09-11-2012 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ken Fabos
09-10-2012 9:53 PM


Is climate change a sideshow or is is our response to it central to God's relationship to humanity?

I'm gonna go with sideshow, Ken.

Has God given us the minimum we need to make informed ethical choices - along with the freedom to choose to completely screw things up, not only for ourselves but for future generations?

Um, yes.

Will God intervene if we choose wrong or leave us and future generations to suck it up?

I don't think God will intervene in any noticeable way.

And is God okay with influential religious voices counting themselves competent to do the assessing and making the choice on behalf of their flock, supplanting individual choice with their own?

I dunno. But if the leaders are acting like they're speaking for god, then blaspheming the holy spirit comes to mind.

Would that be a sin of the leaders or of the followers or both?

The leaders.

Weird questions....


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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 7 of 29 (672784)
09-11-2012 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ken Fabos
09-10-2012 9:53 PM


With environmentalism routinely attacked as "Green Religion",

By who? That's the first I've ever heard that phrasing or accusation.

I am prompted to ask where various Christians (and other religious) stand on issues like loss of biodiversity, climate change, environmentally destructive practices and the intersection of religion, ethics and environment.

It appears to me that (some) christians see earth as belonging to god and don't think that humans have the capacity to destroy it, so they don't really care about how they treat it. Others, it seems to me, want to make "armageddon" or the "end times" a self fulfilling prophecy. However, there are a number of christians that do care about this planet and realize that we are the caretakers and that we do have an impact, positive or negative, on Earth. They come in all shapes and sizes, colors and creeds. It is impossible to get a straight answer how "christians" feel on ANY given subject.

to believing that Jesus will only return when the world is alight with war, evil and environmental degradation - "After the Last Tree is Felled, Christ Will Come Back" (James G. Watt - Ronald Reagan's Interior Secretary) and therefore to be welcomed.

And those same people seem to gladly push for war with the middle east, or "brown people". Thus,t he self fulfilling prophecy.

Is climate change a sideshow or is is our response to it central to God's relationship to humanity?

What does one really have to do with the other? What does this god character have to do with weather? I thought that was Jupiter?

Will God intervene if we choose wrong or leave us and future generations to suck it up?

I am reminded of a quote from Rorshach:

quote:
If God saw what any of us did that night he didn't seem to mind. From then on I knew... God doesn't make the world this way. We do.

And is God okay with influential religious voices counting themselves competent to do the assessing and making the choice on behalf of their flock, supplanting individual choice with their own?

If it did have a problem with it, it sure doesn't make it's opposition very clear.

Would that be a sin of the leaders or of the followers or both?

If we are accepting the premise of sin in the first place, I would place the burden on the leaders for lying, being deceitful or being misguided but spreading a message anyways. If they truly believe what they say, then they surely are delusional and that should absolve them from any wrongdoing in the eyes of a supposed loving god character.


"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2262 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 8 of 29 (672793)
09-11-2012 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ken Fabos
09-10-2012 9:53 PM


Which version of God?
One problem with this whole affair: Define God? God has been and is still pictured a ranging from a tyrannical asshole to a benevolent Santa Claus. And this is the same entity, the God of Abraham aka, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Eloi.

Edited by bluescat48, : sp


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2817
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 9 of 29 (672816)
09-11-2012 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ken Fabos
09-10-2012 9:53 PM


If there is a benevolent, omnipotent creator then I'd think He/She is not ok with the planet being trashed.

But I look at it as God maintaining a Star Trek kind of perspective.
A Prime directive it you will, and will not intervene.
Obviously God has not intervened yet.

It's kind of like having a gold fish bowl. You care about the gold fish, and get kinda pissed if the gold fish rips out the fake plants,
And you perhaps put them back only to have the gold fish rip them out again. So you just say ok screw the fake plants, live in a sewer for all I care.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 10 of 29 (672819)
09-11-2012 3:13 PM


Wow, I'm dumbfounded at how you are all pretending like the christian right is not anti-environmentalists.

Absolutely incredible...


Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by hooah212002, posted 09-11-2012 4:03 PM Taz has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 11 of 29 (672825)
09-11-2012 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taz
09-11-2012 3:13 PM


Who said anything about "the christian right"?? Where did political affiliation enter this discussion?

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Taz, posted 09-11-2012 4:31 PM hooah212002 has responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1364 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 12 of 29 (672827)
09-11-2012 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by hooah212002
09-11-2012 4:03 PM


Ok, fine. Take out the "right" part. Don't even try to deny that mainstream christianity is anti-environmentalist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by hooah212002, posted 09-11-2012 4:03 PM hooah212002 has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 16222
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 13 of 29 (672828)
09-11-2012 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ken Fabos
09-10-2012 9:53 PM


The Bible is both black and white on the issue. The command to "subdue" the earth can be taken as a license to use everything in it to our own advantage and ignore the consequences. On the other hand, the command to be good stewards requires us to take good care of what we have been allowed to use.

It's funny that literalists don't try to reconcile that contradiction.


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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 14 of 29 (672831)
09-11-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Taz
09-11-2012 4:31 PM


I know of no such thing as "main stream" christianity. You know damn well I will be the first to say "christians do this or christians do that". But in this case, I think you are painting with far too broad a brush. What I think you are thinking of is fundamentalist christianity and that is far from "mainstream"; they are just the loudest. You can barely get christians agree on which bible to read or which parts of it are allegory, so how are you going to determine what "mainstream" christianity is?

:edit:
Just look at the christians on this board: no two of them absolutely agree. Some come close, but they all have different opinions regarding the same matters of their religion. Things that, IMO, should be central to it.

Which one of them is "mainstream"?

GDR? He pegs me as an honest chap who most likely gives a shit about this planet.

Buzsaw?

Portillo?

Chuck?

Bluejay? He too seems like an honest, nice person who also likely gives a shit about the planet?

foreveryoung?

ICANT?

Or are there NO "mainstream" christians on this site?

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
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Ken Fabos
Member (Idle past 330 days)
Posts: 51
From: Australia
Joined: 05-09-2010


Message 15 of 29 (672859)
09-11-2012 11:23 PM


Thanks for the responses. Maybe another question is to what extent religious people look to the realm of science to be informed. GDR may feel a religious obligation to care for the world but does that care rely on science telling him about biodiversity or about the carbon cycle, greenhouse gases and climate? Knowledge derived from paleoclimatology could be a stumbling block for some kinds of Christians. As for Catholics there are voices like Fr George Rue that count what science reveals about climate as revelations about God's creation. He's been heavily criticised by other Catholics and seems to be at one extreme end of a very broad spectrum of views. Towards the other end is Australia's most senior Catholic Cleric, Cardinal George Pell, who likens those warning of dangerous climate change as green religionists and paganists-

quote:
In the past pagans sacrificed animals and even humans in vain attempts to placate capricious and cruel gods. Today they demand a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions.

The Vatican seems to accept the reality of the climate problem without the green religion of Rue or the science denial of Pell, but doesn't appear to be acting with great conviction, like it were a God decreed imperative.

And there are actual as well as alleged green religionists to consider, with or without the new-age-alternative-neopaganistic belief systems; I'm sure they encompass a very broad spectrum too. I suspect those like Pell include athiestic scientists and those that advocate on environmental issues based on science in the "Green Religionist" category. I want to hear from or about them - but I'm more interested in more widely held beliefs than dwelling too much on the extreme and the absurd.


Replies to this message:
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