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Author Topic:   Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 89 of 503 (676468)
10-23-2012 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Dr Adequate
10-03-2012 4:28 PM


Dr Adequate, I see the standard creationist flood model has been discussed in this thread, I don't agree with the standard model. Being a bible fundamentalist I believe there was a period of fossilization before the flood, and after the flood, and therefore do not ascribe the entire fossil record to the flood.
I believe the flood incorporated most of the Permian up until the Permian-Triassic boundary, Triassic and afterwards is post-flood. I do believe fossils are layered according to proliferation, during periods that life was suitable to arthropods they proliferated. Next came amphibians. Then reptiles. Then mammals. Just because a certain type proliferated doesn't mean the others weren't there, they just were not common. a good example is Komodo dragons of today they are there, but if the whole earth was covered in sediment in a few thousand years, would we even find their fossils?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-03-2012 4:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Percy, posted 10-23-2012 8:52 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 92 by Coyote, posted 10-23-2012 12:22 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 102 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-24-2012 12:39 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 91 of 503 (676486)
10-23-2012 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Percy
10-23-2012 8:52 AM


Percy, its the coal deposits that make the difference for me. Carboniferous coal deposits speak to me of the pre-flood swampy regions of earth. Permian deposits are more mixed, the fossils less intact. A flood would by necessity cause both types of coal deposits because it would cover over swampy regions of thousands of years of accumulated deposits (peat), and also create new deposits of vegetable matter that would form into coal over time after flood deposits and subsequent deposits compress it.
Looking at the geologic layers, what is known as "Carboniferous" coal and "Permian" coal best conform to these two expected layers of coal.
Additionally there are many attributes of the P-T boundary that would conform to the flood as a possible reason for the extensive extinctions then
(as opposed to the more common view of the flood explaining later layers and extinctions, but Carboniferous/Permian extinctions too.)

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 Message 90 by Percy, posted 10-23-2012 8:52 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 93 of 503 (676543)
10-23-2012 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Coyote
10-23-2012 12:22 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
Coyote, I believe the dating systems are out. As pointed out by Jonf to Serg (post 85?) this thread is not the place to discuss radiometric dating, but is focussed on the flood.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 95 of 503 (676557)
10-23-2012 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Coyote
10-23-2012 5:16 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
Thanks for working with the biblical dates, at least we have a similar frame of reference. I generally conform with Rohl's revised chronology who believes current accepted dates are out by a few hundred years. I believe all the currently observable major civilizations in archaeological history were post-flood. There would be no evidence of global flooding in these civilizations because they were established after the flood.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 10-23-2012 6:09 PM mindspawn has replied
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 98 of 503 (676570)
10-23-2012 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Coyote
10-23-2012 6:13 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
I didn't dispose of the Permian. I believe the Permian ended about 4500 years ago , which is when I believe the flood occurred. I havent got exact dates because I am still looking into Rohl's comments about the sojourn in Egypt, and Usshers dates but I can safely say between 4000 and 5000 years ago. ( ~4500 years ago)
I did explain that I am using geologic terminology to explain which geologic layers I am referring to , although disagreeing with the time-frames normally ascribed to those layers.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Coyote, posted 10-23-2012 9:10 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 184 by PaulK, posted 10-25-2012 6:03 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 99 of 503 (676573)
10-23-2012 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
10-23-2012 6:09 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
Regarding the Egyptians, I believe in Rohl's revised chronology. He shortens time frames by a few hundred years and gives very clear and accurate logic why he does so. This would place the early egyptian civilization less than 5000 years ago.
As for the Jomon culture I also believe they are post-flood, do you know the dates for that culture and how they got those dates?

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 104 of 503 (676599)
10-24-2012 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Dr Adequate
10-24-2012 12:39 AM


To Dr Adequate, some of the Permian strata were laid down by the flood, but mainly the PT boundary corresponds to the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-24-2012 12:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by herebedragons, posted 10-24-2012 9:16 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 126 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-24-2012 3:10 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 105 of 503 (676600)
10-24-2012 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Pressie
10-24-2012 12:50 AM


To Pressie: I'm also a South African.
Regarding your questions, I gave two broad categories of coal. In the one is found Carboniferous fossils, in the other , Permian fossils. I never said the carboniferous swamps covered the whole earth, it would be illogical to say that pre-flood swamps covered the entire earth. I also never claimed that the flood spread dead vegetation evenly over the entire earth, what is more logical is scattered vegetation , and in layers as you point out. Small plants can sink quickly, suspended silt would sink too. It is only logical that the fossilisation or coalification would be in layers as the flood waters settled and the sediment settled and the various categories of dead organic material sank to the bottom. As you say, this is observed in the layering of the Permian deposits.
Neither would I exclude the possibility that coal has formed since the flood, although this is pushing the limits for the amount of time needed to form coal.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 110 of 503 (676616)
10-24-2012 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Coyote
10-23-2012 9:10 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
This thread is not for the purpose of debating evolutionary time frames , I believe those time frames are wrong. This thread relates to the flood, so could we kindly focus on other arguments against my flood hypothesis. Maybe we can meet one day in a radiometric thread and discuss evolutionary time frames.
Have you got any proof for your hypothesis that the 18 ages of the Triassic/Jurassic are clear cut layers above one another? any possibility that the appearance of certain distinctive fossils could have been concurrent? Nevertheless I believe there were rapid changes after the flood when certain categories took turns to proliferate. As for ammonites, they have always been around since the Cambrian, but the warm oceans of the Triassic/Jurassic especially suited them, so they logically simultaneously proliferated in separate niches throughout the world at the same time, whereas the warm water types were rare in the colder carboniferous climes. And so we had an ammonite explosion in the warm oceans after the PT boundary. It takes only a few decades for any localized fast breeding population to become distinctive, hence all the distinctive breeds of ammonites during the Triassic/Jurassic.
there is a lot of evidence found in ancient cities of recent dinosaurs in:
Nile Mosaic of Palenstrina | DouglasHamp.com
Evidence of Dinosaurs at Angkor | Answers in Genesis
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-cambodia.htm
Ancient Dinosaur Depictions | Genesis Park

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Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Coyote, posted 10-24-2012 11:29 AM mindspawn has replied
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 111 of 503 (676617)
10-24-2012 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by herebedragons
10-24-2012 9:16 AM


Could you give some supporting evidence for this. Maybe certain rock formations you can point to in the carboniferous that are impossible to form quickly, anything to help your case, thanks.
Just to give some background to my view, I believe that the landmass was small and grew during the 1750 years before the flood, hence the initial layer of trilobites followed by the semi-aquatic animals as the ocean bed slowly rose up from the sea over a few hundred years.I believe all life was already there, but land-based fauna were incredibly isolated into a small area (island) and then land masses rose from the ocean.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 114 of 503 (676627)
10-24-2012 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Coyote
10-24-2012 11:29 AM


Re: Discrepancy?
It would have been refreshing to see your arguments against compressing everything from the early Triassic through to current , into 4500 years? I am sure you have many such arguments other than radiometric dating. I have tried to show you evidence for dinosaurs being concurrent with human civilizations and I am prepared to answer any further discrepancies you may pick up.
When I look at the sediments down the Mississippi basin, the rapidity of current sedimentation seems more in tune with recent timeframes (thousands of years) rather than millions of years for the deposition of the Jurassic/Cenozoic sediments in Southern USA.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 116 of 503 (676632)
10-24-2012 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by New Cat's Eye
10-24-2012 12:11 PM


Could you be more specific? When I learn of bottlenecks of certain animals (cheetahs) I see this as occurring relatively recently. According to the bible each animal was represented by 7 animals on the ark. Given two alleles in each animal, this would cause a maximum range of 14 alleles for each animal from the ark (in those genes that have two possible alleles). Do you see any animals that have more than fourteen possible allelles? If so I would agree with your logic, but we have to take into account some mutations to those alleles too.
We should exclude fish , small reptiles and insects and smaller organisms from any such analysis, these could have survived the flood outside the ark. Is there a wide variety of alleles today, have you got proof that there was no such bottleneck?
Edited by mindspawn, : improving post

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 Message 113 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-24-2012 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 10-24-2012 1:37 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-24-2012 1:47 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 127 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-24-2012 3:23 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 117 of 503 (676635)
10-24-2012 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by NoNukes
10-24-2012 1:26 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
Four links that show archaeological evidence in early civilizations for their knowledge of dinosaurs. Dinosaurs were depicted in pottery and architecture in the same manner as other animals, as if their presence was just as common at that time. (Post 110)
Edited by mindspawn, : adding post number

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Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 119 of 503 (676640)
10-24-2012 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
10-24-2012 1:37 PM


Maybe I will get a chance one day in that thread, but you guys are keeping me pretty busy on this thread for now. Thanks for the link.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 122 of 503 (676645)
10-24-2012 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Percy
10-24-2012 9:05 AM


Hi Percy, I see you are asking questions that I have already answered, if you could re-read some of the posts, I will answer any questions you feel are still outstanding. Rohl dealt with archaeology and the dating of early civilizations.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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