Do We NEED God?

The trouble is Ringo that the picture that you present for Christianity is a strawman. Yes, there are some Christians who believe that but it is neither mainstream nor even biblical.The Christian message is when this world comes to an end that all things will be renewed, which is a far cry from the idea that he will wipe us all out.The Bible is also clear is that by rejection it is talking about rejection of His message of love, forgiveness, peace, kindness etc.The Christian message is that in the end there will be perfect justice. What that looks like I don't know, but the Bible tells us that it is about our hearts. Just maybe perfect justice will wind up meaning that the serial rapist who was abused and despised as a child will be closer to the heart of God than some sanctimonious church goer who has all the answers. Paul is pretty clear when he says that we aren't to judge and I think he got it right.Is God necessary? How could we possibly know? I believe that God is necessary and I have my reasons for thinking that but all I really know is how things are. (Even that is questionable.) Obviously we can carry on believing or not believing in God’s existence. The question then becomes unanswerable because we would have to understand the difference between how the world is now and how it would look like if God exists and how it would look if He didn’t.

In the end the point is whether a god, (or if you like an intelligence outside of our physical experience who is responsible for our existence), exists or not. If God exists then that is the only one to choose. However, what matters is what we believe His attributes are, and what desires He might have for our thoughts and actions. (In discussion I would agree that someone who worships a god that is in favour of stoning to death those who pick up firewood on the Sabbath, is a different god than one who wants us to forgive and love friends and enemies alike. However in the end both acknowledge God but understand His nature differently.) If we actually had a definitive answer then we would have had to compromise our free will to choose. A definitive answer is not an option.The question is essentially whether or not a god(s) even exist. As I have said in earlier discussions I’m convinced that the existence of an intelligent first cause for our existence is far more probable than not. If I had come to the opposite conclusion then the whole discussion is moot. The fact that we have so many religions on offer is because we are human and I believe that we live in a non-deterministic world where the future is open and we have the free will to make choices.As a result we all come to our own conclusions of what we will believe. I think that in our lives we would all agree that there is an on-going pull between self interest and concern for the interests of others. I think that it is in many ways it is this struggle that leads us to form our ideas about the attributes of God.I think that we would all agree that theists of all stripes would agree that their religion is a guide as to how they should organize their lives. Non-theists do the same thing but look elsewhere to come to their conclusions. Religions also differ on what happens after death but in reality it doesn’t really make any difference to us in this life, as what will be will be regardless.The difference with Christianity from other religions is Jesus. The Christian claim is that God was actually somehow present in the heart and mind of Jesus. The Christian claim is that after death Jesus was resurrected in a new bodily form that is the prototype for humans in a renewed bodily existence at the end of time, whenever that happens.However, even as Christians we find, (as is evidenced on this forum), a wide difference of belief about the attributes and desires of God. There is always present in all of us, varying degrees of selfishness and we do have a tendency to see God in our own image.In the end it is a heart thing. Out of our hearts and minds we come to our own conclusions about God. I believe that God reaches out to all humanity with love and we are called to reflect that love into the world. I believe when we, both individually and collectively, allow God into our hearts it will make an immeasurable impact on this world and the next. In this way we do need God.

It may not be the topic but it is certainly relevant to the topic. If there is no god(s) then we certainly don't need one. Whether we need the idea of a god to keep people in line is an interesting thought but with you as an example it is obvious that a god isn't necessary.On the other hand if a creative intelligence which we can call God does exist then presumably he is responsible for our existence which kinda makes him necessary. After that the discussion has to centred around the theistic vs the deistic positions. First off, it seems to me that the fact that mankind has always had a sense of something beyond ourselves is indicative that such a something likely exists. If there is no creative intelligence that is responsible for our existence and we are just the result of a chance combination of particles then it is clear that we have come a long way all on our own. I agree that people do want to find ultimate meaning and purpose but why on earth would we have evolved in such a way as to have that desire implanted in our hearts and minds. It just seems so highly improbable that it become implausible if we are not the result of a pre-existing intelligence.All of us, atheist and theist alike have a dream of leaving their mark on this world that endures past death. It might be kids, a beautiful painting or piece of music, a scientific breakthrough, a medical cure or even improving the lot of the less fortunate. I know that you will disagree but if we are the result of just a mindless collection of particles then the fact that we feel that way makes very little sense to me.It could then be argued from a deistic POV that once the plan was in place and creation set in motion, it was then just left to run the course on its own. IMHO that doesn't make much sense either because, amongst other reasons, we do continue to look for purpose and meaning in our lives beyond just existing for the time we have here. Once again it seems improbable to me that we would have that desire as part of our consciousness if there isn't a foundation for it. If what I suggest is correct and there is an ultimate purpose, then it becomes highly probable that we do need God even if our search for understanding of his nature and desires for our lives, doesn’t lead us to as clear an answer as we flawed humans would like.

That was kinda my point. Certainly evolution has given us the instinct to survive, but like you say, I can't see it giving a purpose in terms of a legacy of that entails leaving the world a better place after we're gone. (I can see it from a genetic POV that we would want to see our genes carry on.) My point wasn't about living past death. If evolution has given us a survival instinct then it would make sense that we would think about enduring past death. My point was that we have a desire to leave our mark on this world in a way that has nothing to do with life after death. Atheists, like anyone else are desirous of being remembered for what they have accomplished after they are gone.

I largely agree but then again the idea of leaving a work of art that we will be remembered by isn't really about making the world a better place. People want to leave grave markers, or they write or carve their names in places so that they leave their mark when they are no longer there. People want to leave a legacy so that they will be remembered for something with most of us wanting to leave a positive one.If God exists then potentially He is or has influenced our hearts and minds to want to leave a positive legacy. For us, things are just the way they are and we have no idea whether we are being divinely influenced or not.Essentially then the answer to the question can't be known and we can only come to our own conclusions based on what we do know and our individual perception of reality.

Exactly. The particles endure as something or someone else. Particles are mindless. It seems reasonable to conclude that we are more than just the particles that make up our bodies.

...and here I didn't even realize that we had a choice.

Fair enough but I was talking about a specific "creative intelligence" that is responsible for our existence. I have no idea what else might be out there. My only point was that even if people feel the need for a god to exist then they are still getting by without one actually existing - ergo they don't actually need a god. There are human figures such as Mahatma Ghandi that I have a great deal of respect for. I have never seen him or heard him speak. I have only read what others have written about him. Still, I hold him in high esteem based on that having made certain assumptions based on faith that in he truly was a man who had a heart that I admire and wish that I could emulate. I believe that he lives up to the Bible verse in my signature. I believe that he humbly loves kindness and justice.I have the Bible in which people have written stories about Jesus, about what He said about the one who He called Father and about how that should impact my life.The message makes sense to me and fits with my experience of the world. I find that when I do conform to the message that God wants me to be kind, loving, forgiving etc, I do sense a connection to Him, and even a relationship with Him, so I don't completely agree that this God is unknowable. A lot of the science that I read seems to suggest that we are an emergent part of a greater reality. That is IMHO very consistent with the Christian understanding of our existence alongside a heavenly one. Well it may be wishful thinking but that doesn't make it wrong. I am sure that there is some anthropomorphism in my faith. The human mind and imagination is limited in that sense.However, our thoughts and emotions are real but they aren't, I contend, part of our physical world. If we are going to have a connection with an intelligence that exists in that greater reality it makes sense that it would be through our minds. If this is correct then it makes sense that the entity that we call God would have similar characteristics but at superhuman levels.

That was my point and of course if He doesn't exist we don't need Him. Now you are talking about needing the idea of a god not an actual one.I lived just fine for a number of years as an agnostic. I came to believe in God not out of any particular need but simply because I came to believe that God actually did exist. I'm looking for truth just as you are. We just have come to different conclusions. Just because people believe in a god does not mean that they need to. I agree, which seems to me something of an indication that in a general sense there is a very good chance that there is something to it. I don't think that we can tell the difference. I do know that the older I get the more I realize that my body is getting older but I'm not. Sure, many of my interests have changed and as well as some rather fundamental beliefs about the world but, there is something about my essence that just doesn't change.Without getting specific we can read in the papers about some despicable molestation of a child. Later we may read about the abuse that the molester had suffered in his own life. How do we sort that out. Maybe deep down that molester hates what he's done and actually desires to embrace a life based on unselfish love but for hormonal, environmental, or drug related reasons he has done what he's done.So, I don't have a good answer to your question. Personally I believe in a god that will ultimately sort all of these questions out in a manner that is perfectly just. I like CS Lewis' treatment of this in his book "The Great Divorce". I'm not convinced that we can exist, (at least in the way that we understand existence), without a physical body.