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Author Topic:   About New Lamarckian Synthesis Theory
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 264 (674728)
10-02-2012 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by zi ko
10-02-2012 10:45 AM


Re: BRe: If the evironment is causing ...
I would be most grateful to you if you could give me some evidences concerning your stiff belief on random mutations.

It is fair to note that jar did not provide any evidence supporting the fact that mutations are random with respect to fitness. But that scarcely matters, because others have done so, and you've ignored what they have presented.

As for the OP, it does leave room open to argue about some Lamarckian aspects to epigenesis, but even that modification might well be random with respect to fitness even if the mutations themselves are induced by external stimuli. In order to have a case, you need to show not just that the rate of mutations is susceptible to environmental pressure, but that the fitness of those mutations is also susceptible to the same pressure.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by zi ko, posted 10-02-2012 10:45 AM zi ko has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 264 (675329)
10-10-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by zi ko
10-10-2012 11:35 AM


Re: Re DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
neither you manage after so intence research to prove it couldn't happen.

Is this really your best argument? After all, I cannot disprove that evolution of mammals was not caused by magic elves living in hollow trees.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by zi ko, posted 10-10-2012 11:35 AM zi ko has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 264 (675882)
10-16-2012 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by zi ko
10-16-2012 10:06 PM


Nature wouldn't allow it to happen

I presume that you are describing the actions of Mother Nature here.

Exactly what do you mean by your statement? How would nature disallow a non beneficial change from occurring?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by zi ko, posted 10-16-2012 10:06 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2012 8:27 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 264 (675995)
10-18-2012 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by zi ko
10-17-2012 8:27 AM


Please explain
There is the long lasting, environmetally positioned, epigenetical change. This last couldn't go astray. Nature wouldn't allow it to happen, as it is a very economic short cut road to evolution.

Again, what does this statement mean? You've attempted to distinguish epigenetical change from mutations which could be beneficial or detrimental by saying that nature will not allow the former to go astray?

If your statement means something other than saying that Nature won't allow detrimental epigenetical changes, then I cannot figure out what you are saying.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by zi ko, posted 10-17-2012 8:27 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by zi ko, posted 10-18-2012 4:30 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 264 (676074)
10-18-2012 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by zi ko
10-18-2012 4:30 PM


Re: Please explain
Epigenetic changes are never detrimental, as they had been selected by natural selection.

Are you truly unable to see the contradiction in this sentence?

What i am saying is that nature would not allow epigenetic changes to go astray.

Where "astray" means what exactly? Perhaps if you cite an example of an astray epigenetic change that nature won't allow.

Or even better, stop referring to nature anthropomorphically and just talk plainly about what process you are referring to.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by zi ko, posted 10-18-2012 4:30 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 12:26 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 264 (676090)
10-19-2012 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by zi ko
10-19-2012 12:26 AM


Re: Please explain
You ask me to give evidence of a possible phenomenon,a supposition, taking place over thousand of years.

Wrong. I did not ask you for evidence. What I asked for is an example, and it can be one you invent, of an astray epigenetic change that you believe nature would not allow. I want you to tell me how nature would prevent such a change. If you are unable to do this, I am going to conclude that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Me writes:

Are you truly unable to see the contradiction in this sentence?

Perhaps you could show me it.

I'll try to do so.

If natural selection is at work, then the expected action is that changes are created by whatever mechanism, and the changes that provide an advantage in a given environment for the purpose of surviving to pass on inheritable change. You say that epigenetic changes are developed through natural selection, but then you deny that such changes can ever be detrimental without specifying what the environment is.

That combination of ideas is nonsensical. Further, you've been provided with counter examples.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 12:26 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 9:47 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 107 by herebedragons, posted 10-19-2012 9:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 264 (676103)
10-19-2012 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by zi ko
10-19-2012 9:47 AM


Re: Please explain
Nature would never, for reasons of economics, would allow n epigenetic ghange to go astray

And I'm asking you how nature would prevent this thing it would not allow. What is the process by which economics are taken into account?

In short, (and again) stop treating nature as a person or deity and tell me how this thing you say happens would or could work. What would prevent an elongated giraffes neck from becoming a useless or even a detrimental change?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 9:47 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 10:57 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 119 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 11:07 PM NoNukes has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 264 (676104)
10-19-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by herebedragons
10-19-2012 9:48 AM


Re: Please explain
Nature however can see exactly where this arrow is heading so she quickly moves the target to intercept the arrow and thus mutation hits the target.

If this is what Zi ko means, I hope he will acknowledge it. I don't find the concepts particularly difficult, but I don't see much science in them.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by herebedragons, posted 10-19-2012 9:48 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by herebedragons, posted 10-19-2012 10:34 AM NoNukes has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 264 (676172)
10-20-2012 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by zi ko
10-19-2012 10:57 PM


Re: Please explain
Nature does not prevent anything. What does not allow,

"Prevent" means the same thing as "does not allow", at least to the extend that "disallowing" requires that Nature prevent something.

Nature use them to show about the direction to next mutations.

You make statements like this, but then with a straight face claim not to be talking about nature as some sort of person or deity. How would Nature use something without being an entity capable of use?

Either there is a communication barrier here that you are unable to surmount, or your ideas make no sense.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by zi ko, posted 10-19-2012 10:57 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by zi ko, posted 10-20-2012 10:08 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 264 (676229)
10-20-2012 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by zi ko
10-20-2012 10:08 AM


Re: Please explain
Or C atoms use O to make CO2.

We might make the statement above, but we would also recognize and accept that such statements are sloppy. If asked to explain we could talk about the chemistry and math involved between the bonding of carbon and oxygen atoms in such a way that we don't treat them as living beings. On the other hand microbes are living beings.

You admit that Nature is not a living being, so I am asking you to explain what "use" and "disallow" actually represent in non-anthropomorphic language. Can you do that?

"Prevent" something to happen.Here there is something had happened and nature does not allow it to get lost.

So how does nature 'prevent' it from getting lost? What role does economics and efficiency play in preventing it from getting lost?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by zi ko, posted 10-20-2012 10:08 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by zi ko, posted 10-21-2012 11:40 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 264 (676277)
10-21-2012 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by zi ko
10-21-2012 11:40 AM


Re: Please explain
By using the epigenetic change to pave the way to environmentally guided mutations.

How is this done? You seem to be arguing in a circle.

I can't follow you.

Communicating with you is far too difficult. You've outlasted me, so I guess you win.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by zi ko, posted 10-21-2012 11:40 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by zi ko, posted 10-22-2012 6:56 AM NoNukes has seen this message

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 184 of 264 (678001)
11-03-2012 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by zi ko
11-03-2012 8:35 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
sudenly by a random mutation that most propably leads to a different direction of evolution all is cancelled and so all the previous work done is going astray. That is the stupiest thing for nature to happen.

It's almost as if Nature had no cognitive ability at all!


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by zi ko, posted 11-03-2012 8:35 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by zi ko, posted 11-04-2012 7:57 AM NoNukes has taken no action
 Message 186 by zi ko, posted 11-04-2012 8:04 AM NoNukes has taken no action

  
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