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Author Topic:   About New Lamarckian Synthesis Theory
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 115 of 264 (676149)
10-19-2012 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Taq
10-19-2012 11:00 AM


Then please show how the process of mutagenesis is different in metazoans and how that results in non-random mutations.
As i said there is not still such evidence,. for the same reason that evidence of random mutations in metazoa is missing.Perhaps you as well should feel obliged, in spite of blindly believing in random mutatations,to show that the processes of evolution in one cell organisms and metazoa are not different, instead of applying with so much easiness the same conclusions to different things and situations, which is totally unscientific
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Taq, posted 10-19-2012 11:00 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Admin, posted 10-20-2012 8:06 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 141 by Taq, posted 10-22-2012 1:00 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 116 of 264 (676150)
10-19-2012 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Taq
10-19-2012 10:57 AM


What evidence would you have to see in order to admit that mutations are not guided.
Not more than you, after 150 ys of Darwinism have you managed to bring here to support random mutations in metazoa.
Are they permanent or dynamic? You need to choose one.
They are both.
Also, how does the environment make mutations non-random with respect to fitness.
. By using epigenetic changes to guide mutations to specific direction.
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Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Taq, posted 10-19-2012 10:57 AM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 117 of 264 (676151)
10-19-2012 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by herebedragons
10-19-2012 9:48 AM


Re: Please explain
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I have an analogy may explain what I think Zi Ko is saying.
Mutation is going to shoot an arrow, but it can't see where the target is. Nature, however, has a way to call out to mutation to say "aim this way", so that the arrow will be shot in the general direction of the target. But mutation still fires in a relatively random direction because it cannot actually see the target. Nature however can see exactly where this arrow is heading so she quickly moves the target to intercept the arrow and thus mutation hits the target.
The big thing is that nature is almost a being in and of itself and is directing all natural processes, so what looks random really isn't, but guided by some supernatural force (nature itself). If anything survives and thrives then that is considered evidence that the process is guided. If anything dies or goes extinct, that is also evidence that nature had deemed it necessary to ensure survival of other life.
Zi Ko's philosophy seems very Eastern in nature and very difficult for us with a more Western philosophy to get a handle on.
HBD
No. i am misundestood.Environment is Affecting organisms (metazoa) epigenetically. Long after , maybe thousand of ys, the eigenetic change, as environment contnues to press on the same direction, prepares the field and shows about the direction of the useful mutations to happen.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 118 of 264 (676152)
10-19-2012 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by NoNukes
10-19-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Please explain
And I'm asking you how nature would prevent this thing it would not allow. What is the process by which economics are taken into account?
Nature does not prevent anything. What does not allow, and it is not economially sensible to happen, is the up to then epigenetic processes and changes to be usless.Nature use them to show about the direction to next mutations.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by NoNukes, posted 10-19-2012 9:59 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 8:30 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 119 of 264 (676153)
10-19-2012 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by NoNukes
10-19-2012 9:59 AM


Re: Please explain
In short, (and again) stop treating nature as a person or deity and tell me how this thing you say happens would or could work. What would prevent an elongated giraffes neck from becoming a useless or even a detrimental change?
I don't treat nature as aa person or deity. I only treat environmental information as it is deserved to be treated and in line of my belief that the Univerce is made by substance and information communicating between substance.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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 Message 120 by Coyote, posted 10-19-2012 11:21 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 121 of 264 (676166)
10-20-2012 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Coyote
10-19-2012 11:21 PM


Re: Please explain
Sorry for not being able to be understood.


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 Message 122 by Larni, posted 10-20-2012 5:28 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 123 of 264 (676170)
10-20-2012 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Larni
10-20-2012 5:28 AM


Re: Please explain
Ha ha,ha. Rreally you think it is only that?


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 126 of 264 (676182)
10-20-2012 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
10-20-2012 8:30 AM


Re: Please explain
Prevent" means the same thing as "does not allow", at least to the extend that "disallowing" requires that Nature prevent something.
There is a fine differemce. "Prevent" something to happen.Here there is something had happened and nature does not allow it to get lost.
How would Nature use something without being an entity capable of use?
It is about the same as a microbe uses oxygen. Or C atoms use O to make CO2.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 8:30 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 5:15 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 127 of 264 (676183)
10-20-2012 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Admin
10-20-2012 8:06 AM


you have to provide your evidence or at least a rationale.
I can provide only a rationale.


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 Message 124 by Admin, posted 10-20-2012 8:06 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 130 by Admin, posted 10-20-2012 5:28 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 131 of 264 (676246)
10-21-2012 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Admin
10-20-2012 5:28 PM


Re: Moderator Request
Why don't you follow my suggestion from earlier in the thread and use the Time article to structure your arguments? It provided some pretty strong evidence and arguments, it was foolish to abandon it as quickly as you introduced it.
The Time article and many others of the kind had been shown on the OP. there was the legitimate argument by many, that though the inheritance of epigenetic changes for many generations is now wildly accepted, still there are not mutations that cause the epigenetic changes.So what can I offer in the discussion by repeating the same data and argunents?
...A rationale of "It's not impossible" is just an excuse to keep talking when you've got nothing. It's not based on any evidence.
My idea that long standing epigenetic changes( for maybe thousand of ys) may pave the appearance of environmentally guided muations, is surely a heretical one, beyond the limits of current knowledge. But is this a lonely phenomenon in the history of science, in the face that there is not any evidence against it, as not work had been done on this particular issue? So many such suppositions are wildly discussed even on this forum.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Admin, posted 10-20-2012 5:28 PM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Larni, posted 10-21-2012 6:19 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 133 by Admin, posted 10-21-2012 8:03 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 134 of 264 (676274)
10-21-2012 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Admin
10-21-2012 8:03 AM


Re: Moderator Request
You are right Percy. But I only wish to have an intelligent discussion here , not to convince anybody that i am right.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 135 of 264 (676275)
10-21-2012 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Larni
10-21-2012 6:19 AM


Re: Moderator Request
Most suppositions, as e.g random mutations in metazoa is, are unevidenced. You didn't bring a single evidence of your robust theory of evolution, concerning random mutations in metazoa, remember, in spite of 150 ys of intence research.


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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 136 of 264 (676276)
10-21-2012 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by NoNukes
10-20-2012 5:15 PM


Re: Please explain
So how does nature 'prevent' it from getting lost? What role does economics and efficiency play in preventing it from getting lost?
By using the epigenetic change to pave the way to environmentally guided mutations. If epigenetic effect were not to be used , it would just a huge waste . Such thing don't see often in nature.
You admit that Nature is not a living being, so I am asking you to explain what "use" and "disallow" actually represent in non-anthropomorphic language. Can you do that?
I can't follow you.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 5:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by NoNukes, posted 10-21-2012 11:43 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 138 of 264 (676349)
10-22-2012 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by NoNukes
10-21-2012 11:43 AM


Re: Please explain
How is this done? You seem to be arguing in a circle.
I have said it many times. But i will repeat it for you. There is not to my knowledge, relevant work done on this issue. It is a new idea. Maybe it wil be in future I hope.Why do you insist asking the same question again and again?. I suppose for reasons of impression. So you made the most of it and so you have won.
Communicating with you is far too difficult. You've outlasted me, so I guess you win.
And so with this unkind evasion you perfectly suceed to keep intact your sacred caw. Well done!
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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 Message 137 by NoNukes, posted 10-21-2012 11:43 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 144 by Taq, posted 10-22-2012 1:32 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3645 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 145 of 264 (676470)
10-23-2012 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Taq
10-22-2012 1:00 PM


We also observe that mutations cause deleterious, neutral, and beneficial mutations in metazoans just as these mechanisms do in prokaryotes
I suppose you mean.... "beneficial changes"...
We also observe that mutations cause deleterious, neutral, and beneficial mutations in metazoans just as these mechanisms do in prokaryotes. When we compare genomes between species we also observe an obvious selective signal in functioning genes were deleterious mutations have been selected against indicating that deleterious mutations have been occuring throughout evolutionary history.
OK with procayotes eucaryotes and random mutations. It is the most economic way for nature to suceed evolution. The environmental factor comes in the picture more vigorously in metazoans.( here the relevant evidence is missing), but it still an element of randomness is remaining, as the broad direction given by environment, gives the the chances of many types ov variation, of which some is neutral or deleterious. So the existance of such mutations does not favor random or guided mutations.
What we don't see is an entire population acquiring a specific mutation in single generation in response to a specific environmental stimuli. This is what I would expect from a system where the environment guides mutations, and it simply is not seen.
No i wouldn't expect a specific mutation from a specific environmental stimuli. Quite the different. Environment , specially for long periods, is so fuctuating and unstable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Taq, posted 10-22-2012 1:00 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Taq, posted 10-23-2012 12:41 PM zi ko has replied

  
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