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Author Topic:   About New Lamarckian Synthesis Theory
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 181 of 264 (677937)
11-02-2012 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Taq
11-01-2012 5:37 PM


You seem to support a totally illogical situation: You now are forced by the evidence to accept that eoigenetic changes, inherited to many generations, accompanied with a lot of regulating mechanisms, loaded in specific epigenetic genome places, sudenly due to a random mutation , that leads propably evolution to different direction, are all wiped out and go astray.
What does that even mean? I really don't understand what you are trying to claim.... If that is not the mechanism you are trying to evidence, then why did you cite this paper?
My conclusions are independed and maybe different from auhors conclusions. They don't take into account the possibility of guided mutations. But they don't preclude it. This is their mistake.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Taq, posted 11-01-2012 5:37 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Larni, posted 11-03-2012 5:19 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 194 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 12:40 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 183 of 264 (677995)
11-03-2012 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Larni
11-03-2012 5:19 AM


An obvious mistake.
The mistake is self evident.After a work of maybe thousant of ys, during which epigenetic changes were accumulated together with many regulatory mechanisms,sudenly by a random mutation that most propably leads to a different direction of evolution all is cancelled and so all the previous work done is going astray. That is the stupidiest thing for nature to happen.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Larni, posted 11-03-2012 5:19 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2012 9:02 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 187 by Larni, posted 11-04-2012 11:43 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 195 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 12:42 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 185 of 264 (678021)
11-04-2012 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by NoNukes
11-03-2012 9:02 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
sudenly by a random mutation that most propably leads to a different direction of evolution all is cancelled and so all the previous work done is going astray. That is the stupiest thing for nature to happen.
It's almost as if Nature had no cognitive ability at all!
What is it so difficult to unnderstand? We all know that there is a continous information flow from environment to organisms and even to the genome,plenty of epigenetic changes loaded to particular genome areas, and many REGULATION MECHANISMS,constantly fuctioning. Do you ask, in this hard reality, if there is cognitive ability in nature? Of course not. It is a matter of choice between two, and only two, cases: either believe there is, or you think natural laws are enough to explain every thing. This is the hard fact. But now it is not our question for discussion.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2012 9:02 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 12:44 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 186 of 264 (678022)
11-04-2012 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by NoNukes
11-03-2012 9:02 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
sudenly by a random mutation that most propably leads to a different direction of evolution all is cancelled and so all the previous work done is going astray. That is the stupiest thing for nature to happen.
It's almost as if Nature had no cognitive ability at all!
What is it so difficult to unnderstand? We all know that there is a continous information flow from environment to organisms and even to the genome,plenty of epigenetic changes loaded to particular genome areas, and many REGULATION MECHANISMS,constantly fuctioning. Do you ask, in this hard reality, if there is cognitive ability in nature? Of course not. It is a matter of choice between two, and only two, cases: either believe there is, or you think natural laws are enough to explain every thing. This is the hard fact. But now it is not our question for discussion.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2012 9:02 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-04-2012 11:48 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 189 of 264 (678061)
11-04-2012 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by New Cat's Eye
11-04-2012 11:48 AM


Re: An obvious mistake.
How is information flowing from the environment to my genome?
It is easy to know. Just read about epigenetics.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-04-2012 11:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-04-2012 9:55 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 190 of 264 (678062)
11-04-2012 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Larni
11-04-2012 11:43 AM


Re: An obvious mistake.
You still think empathy guides evolution, don't you? After all these years you haven't given up on it, have you?
It isn't time for it yet.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Larni, posted 11-04-2012 11:43 AM Larni has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 192 of 264 (678080)
11-05-2012 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by New Cat's Eye
11-04-2012 9:55 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
Where's the part where the information flows from the environment to my genome?
i give you time to be able to vomit all rotten material inside you.
On the opening post :
I quote.
Technology Review
I The effects of an animal's environment during adolescence can be passed down to future offspring, according to two new studies. If applicable to humans, the research, done on rodents, suggests that the impact of both childhood education and early abuse could span generations. The findings provide support for a 200-year-old theory of evolution that has been largely dismissed: Lamarckian evolution, which states that acquired characteristics can be passed on to offspring.
As i said it is easy.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-04-2012 9:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-05-2012 10:41 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 197 of 264 (678118)
11-05-2012 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by New Cat's Eye
11-05-2012 10:41 AM


Re: An obvious mistake.
Here are some links:
Read more: Page not found | TIME
: Page not found | TIME
I quote
Why Your DNA Isn't Your Destiny
By John Cloud Wednesday, Jan. 06, 2010
Read more: Page not found | TIME
For deep evolutional changes in multi-cellular organisms, mutations on DNA to be beneficial, need to be prepared by epigenetic phenotype changes, which facilitate these types of mutation. In one cell and other of low organization evolution is endogenously forced by life momentum.
The stress of fear, lack of food, lack of mating opportunities etc., are the main causes of soft or deep changes. As these stresses are empathetically transmitted not only to life peers, but to extant population in wild areas, and to proximal generations , the resultant beneficial mutations are fairly quickly established, reducing the time needed by natural selection to do its work. This long time effect is the main cause of speciation as it expresses deep survival needs.
Beneficial mutations produce many variants, so selection process remains important.
Differences between mono- and multi cellular organisms, in relation to frequency or ratio of random vs guided mutations.
The guiding mechanisms found by Zhang and Saier in one cell organisms are evidence of more complicated such mechanisms in superior life types, where I think are much more common, given the complexity of that life.
Randomness is used regularly by nature as an effective and maybe cheap mechanism for its scopes, so it can’t be thought anymore as a random process.
More recently, however, researchers have begun to realize that epigenetics could also help explain certain scientific mysteries that traditional genetics never could: for instance, why one member of a pair of identical twins can develop bipolar disorder or asthma even though the other is fine. Or why autism strikes boys four times as often as girls. Or why extreme changes in diet over a short period in Norrbotten could lead to extreme changes in longevity. In these cases, the genes may be the same, but their patterns of expression have clearly been tweaked.
(See the best pictures of 2009.)
Biologists offer this analogy as an explanation: if the genome is the hardware, then the epigenome is the software. "I can load Windows, if I want, on my Mac," says Joseph Ecker, a Salk Institute biologist and leading epigenetic scientist. "You're going to have the same chip in there, the same genome, but different software. And the outcome is a different cell type."
Read more: Page not found | TIME
.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-05-2012 10:41 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-05-2012 10:49 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 198 of 264 (678123)
11-05-2012 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Taq
11-05-2012 12:42 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
It doesn't matter if you think it is stupid or not. Random mutations is what the evidence indicates, and you have not presented any evidence that would lead us to consider guided mutations.
If the waste and the stupidity of the idea is proved over any doupt don't you think your pet Darwinian theory is in danger?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here are some links:
Page not found | TIME
: Page not found | TIME
I quote
Why Your DNA Isn't Your Destiny
By John Cloud Wednesday, Jan. 06, 2010
Read more: Page not found | TIME
For deep evolutional changes in multi-cellular organisms, mutations on DNA to be beneficial, need to be prepared by epigenetic phenotype changes, which facilitate these types of mutation. In one cell and other of low organization evolution is endogenously forced by life momentum.
The stress of fear, lack of food, lack of mating opportunities etc., are the main causes of soft or deep changes. As these stresses are empathetically transmitted not only to life peers, but to extant population in wild areas, and to proximal generations , the resultant beneficial mutations are fairly quickly established, reducing the time needed by natural selection to do its work. This long time effect is the main cause of speciation as it expresses deep survival needs.
Beneficial mutations produce many variants, so selection process remains important.
Differences between mono- and multi cellular organisms, in relation to frequency or ratio of random vs guided mutations.
The guiding mechanisms found by Zhang and Saier in one cell organisms are evidence of more complicated such mechanisms in superior life types, where I think are much more common, given the complexity of that life.
Randomness is used regularly by nature as an effective and maybe cheap mechanism for its scopes, so it can’t be thought anymore as a random process.
More recently, however, researchers have begun to realize that epigenetics could also help explain certain scientific mysteries that traditional genetics never could: for instance, why one member of a pair of identical twins can develop bipolar disorder or asthma even though the other is fine. Or why autism strikes boys four times as often as girls. Or why extreme changes in diet over a short period in Norrbotten could lead to extreme changes in longevity. In these cases, the genes may be the same, but their patterns of expression have clearly been tweaked.
(See the best pictures of 2009.)
Biologists offer this analogy as an explanation: if the genome is the hardware, then the epigenome is the software. "I can load Windows, if I want, on my Mac," says Joseph Ecker, a Salk Institute biologist and leading epigenetic scientist. "You're going to have the same chip in there, the same genome, but different software. And the outcome is a different cell type."
Read more: Page not found | TIME
-


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 12:42 PM Taq has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 199 of 264 (678124)
11-05-2012 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Taq
11-05-2012 12:42 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
It doesn't matter if you think it is stupid or not. Random mutations is what the evidence indicates, and you have not presented any evidence that would lead us to consider guided mutations.
If the waste and the stupidity of the idea is proved over any doupt don't you think your pet Darwinian theory is in danger?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here are some links:
Page not found | TIME
: Page not found | TIME
I quote
Why Your DNA Isn't Your Destiny
By John Cloud Wednesday, Jan. 06, 2010
Read more: Page not found | TIME
For deep evolutional changes in multi-cellular organisms, mutations on DNA to be beneficial, need to be prepared by epigenetic phenotype changes, which facilitate these types of mutation. In one cell and other of low organization evolution is endogenously forced by life momentum.
The stress of fear, lack of food, lack of mating opportunities etc., are the main causes of soft or deep changes. As these stresses are empathetically transmitted not only to life peers, but to extant population in wild areas, and to proximal generations , the resultant beneficial mutations are fairly quickly established, reducing the time needed by natural selection to do its work. This long time effect is the main cause of speciation as it expresses deep survival needs.
Beneficial mutations produce many variants, so selection process remains important.
Differences between mono- and multi cellular organisms, in relation to frequency or ratio of random vs guided mutations.
The guiding mechanisms found by Zhang and Saier in one cell organisms are evidence of more complicated such mechanisms in superior life types, where I think are much more common, given the complexity of that life.
Randomness is used regularly by nature as an effective and maybe cheap mechanism for its scopes, so it can’t be thought anymore as a random process.
More recently, however, researchers have begun to realize that epigenetics could also help explain certain scientific mysteries that traditional genetics never could: for instance, why one member of a pair of identical twins can develop bipolar disorder or asthma even though the other is fine. Or why autism strikes boys four times as often as girls. Or why extreme changes in diet over a short period in Norrbotten could lead to extreme changes in longevity. In these cases, the genes may be the same, but their patterns of expression have clearly been tweaked.
(See the best pictures of 2009.)
Biologists offer this analogy as an explanation: if the genome is the hardware, then the epigenome is the software. "I can load Windows, if I want, on my Mac," says Joseph Ecker, a Salk Institute biologist and leading epigenetic scientist. "You're going to have the same chip in there, the same genome, but different software. And the outcome is a different cell type."
Read more: Page not found | TIME
-


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 12:42 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 2:29 PM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 200 of 264 (678125)
11-05-2012 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Taq
11-05-2012 12:44 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
However, none of these mechanisms guide mutations. Pointing to epigenetics and DNA regulation does not evidence guided mutations.
I am not trying to show how epigenetics pave the way to mutations.Other well equipped scientists will be be able to do this. At present i am satisfied just to show the absurdities of the "classic" theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 12:44 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 2:31 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 203 of 264 (678173)
11-05-2012 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Taq
11-05-2012 2:31 PM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
You need to show how epigenetics guides mutations so that they are only beneficial and do not produce neutral or detrimental mutations. Where have you done that?
I many times had said that my theory allows the existance of neutral or deleterious mutations together with beneficial.Nor you ,nor as ST. DAWKINS did, can state a single case of random
mutation leading to new species.so you are not to any advantagious place in relation to my theory. But in addition,you are in the difficult position of explainig that inpropable and totally unuderstandable waste, on the limit of the ubsurddity,of the epigenetic work that was taken place in each organism over thousands of years.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 2:31 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Taq, posted 11-06-2012 11:26 AM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 206 of 264 (678342)
11-07-2012 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Taq
11-06-2012 11:26 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
I many times had said that my theory allows the existance of neutral or deleterious mutations together with beneficial.
Then what is the point of guided mutations?
Guidance is loose, just to restrict the needed number of random mutations.
Compare the human and chimp genome. The differences between those genomes are the result of random mutations.
They equally well could due to the procedure of loose guidance.
That is an argument from incredulity. I don't need to explain your difficulty in accepting reality.
Reality is the big issue. How can we know it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Taq, posted 11-06-2012 11:26 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Larni, posted 11-07-2012 7:09 AM zi ko has not replied
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 11-07-2012 10:43 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 211 by kofh2u, posted 11-09-2012 8:05 AM zi ko has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 209 of 264 (678467)
11-08-2012 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Taq
11-07-2012 10:43 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
Guidance is loose, just to restrict the needed number of random mutations.
If you buy more lottery tickets does the lottery cease to be random?
This analogy does not fit to reality so it is unfortunate. We don't have more tickets, but less numbers to choose from. There some difference.
Based on what evidence?
About metazoans, on the same amount of evidence you have for randomness, and with no any scientific obligation to to give any account of why such a usefull work done by epigenetics for many many years in a species has to be ignored by true science and and has to become useless and go astray .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 11-07-2012 10:43 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Taq, posted 11-08-2012 4:34 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 212 of 264 (678891)
11-11-2012 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Taq
11-08-2012 4:34 PM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" evolution Theory.
We have reached the point where we behave as if we are deaf to each other. Theoretic arguments have not any impact.
I think it is better to talk with examples:
elongated girrafes neck, being first an epigenetic change, then it came mutations that increased the number of spondyls etc. According to classic theory the mutations that increased the number of spondyls and all accompanying features (long first legs, loss of corns,etc) came one after the other randomly, without any regard to epigenetic reality and environmental pressure, untill they fit to existing phenotype, through natural selection. But again that means phenotype ( as the result of envionmental effect, is the real moto for evolution, the guiding force .
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Taq, posted 11-08-2012 4:34 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Dr Jack, posted 11-11-2012 10:38 AM zi ko has replied
 Message 218 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 10:59 AM zi ko has replied

  
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