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Author Topic:   About New Lamarckian Synthesis Theory
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 166 of 264 (676925)
10-25-2012 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Taq
10-25-2012 5:33 PM


Re: Different mutations in different populations
DNA regulation is not DNA mutation. They are two different things.
Which are linked and one is following the other It is temporarily only a belief , not much different than yours.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Taq, posted 10-25-2012 5:33 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Taq, posted 10-25-2012 7:09 PM zi ko has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 167 of 264 (676927)
10-25-2012 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by zi ko
10-25-2012 7:06 PM


Re: Different mutations in different populations
Which are linked and one is following the other
How so?
It is temporarily only a belief , not much different than yours.
I have evidence to back up my claims which makes them more than a belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by zi ko, posted 10-25-2012 7:06 PM zi ko has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 168 of 264 (676929)
10-25-2012 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by zi ko
10-25-2012 6:58 PM


if the environment is guiding mutations ...
You have no thesis, hardly a hypothesis.
How do you determine which are guided mutations?
If the environment is guiding mutations why did one kitten have a white paw while another had a black tip on its tail?
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title and add question

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 169 of 264 (677006)
10-26-2012 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by herebedragons
10-23-2012 10:52 AM


Re: Please explain
So, in order to establish the case that mutations are guided by the environment via epigenetic changes it needs to be established that:
1. The environment can target specific places in the genome for epigenetic change.
2. Those epigenetic changes can target specific mutations within that region.
3. Those targeted mutations increase the fitness of the individual.
From these three terms the 1. is ,I suppose, by any body accepted.
Term 2 : The targeted mutations are bound to increase fitness, as there are from the start chosen by environment to meet special needs.
So in fact it remains only the 2, term. I have said many times that time scale makes it almost impossible ( for the moment) to identify such guidance in mutations. It is exactly the same reason that no direct evidence of random mutations in metazoans, even after 150 ys of intense research and effort. Any relevant deductions are just hair pulled. In view of works that show different states of regulations in metazoans and the principle of economy, guidance of mutations vs random is the most propable.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


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 Message 148 by herebedragons, posted 10-23-2012 10:52 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 172 by Taq, posted 10-26-2012 11:48 AM zi ko has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 170 of 264 (677021)
10-26-2012 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by zi ko
10-26-2012 9:47 AM


Re: Please explain
Did you understand herebedragons' question?
You need to establish (rather than assume) the 3 points.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 171 of 264 (677023)
10-26-2012 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Taq
10-23-2012 4:38 PM


Radiometric dating puts the lava flows at about 2 million years old. With 4 generations per year that puts it at 8 million generations of mice. That seems adequate to me.
You dinn't take into account that these mice had already evolved not today but many millions of ys ago. So your calculations are definitely wrong.


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 Message 153 by Taq, posted 10-23-2012 4:38 PM Taq has replied

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 Message 173 by Taq, posted 10-26-2012 11:51 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 172 of 264 (677024)
10-26-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by zi ko
10-26-2012 9:47 AM


Re: Please explain
The targeted mutations are bound to increase fitness, as there are from the start chosen by environment to meet special needs.
What evidence do you have for this mechanism?
I have said many times that time scale makes it almost impossible ( for the moment) to identify such guidance in mutations.
That is not a problem. We have a direct record of millions of years of evolution in the genomes of living organisms. It's all there.
In view of works that show different states of regulations in metazoans and the principle of economy, guidance of mutations vs random is the most propable.
How does DNA regulation guide mutations? Please cite evidence for this claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by zi ko, posted 10-26-2012 9:47 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by zi ko, posted 10-31-2012 12:32 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 173 of 264 (677026)
10-26-2012 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by zi ko
10-26-2012 11:45 AM


You dinn't take into account that these mice had already evolved not today but many millions of ys ago. So your calculations are definitely wrong.
That is taken into account. That is why you see more variation in the light allele compared to the dark allele because the light allele is ancestral and had more time to accumulate neutral mutations. The dark allele has less variation indicating that there was a selective sweep of that allele in recent history. This matches with the radiometric dating of the lava which is less than 2 million years old.

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 174 of 264 (677647)
10-31-2012 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Admin
10-20-2012 8:06 AM


So if you think the DNA copying process in a unicellular organisms can experience random errors while that in multicellular organisms cannot then you have to provide your evidence or at least a rationale. Taq is already asking you for this evidence, and I agree that you need to provide it.
There is the article:Emerging principles of regulatory evolution
1. Benjamin Prud'homme * , ,
2. Nicolas Gompel , , and
3. Sean B. Carroll * ,
"These principles endow regulatory evolution with a vast creative potential that accounts for both relatively modest morphological differences among closely related species and more profound anatomical divergences among groups at higher taxonomical levels. "
These regulatory mechanisms are to me clear indications of non randomness in evolution.
The above work , among many others, shows the possible mechanism that guided mutations follow. When in a epigenetic area , through long periods of epigenetic changes, relevant regulations are havily placed one upon others, ( and this phenomenon is a FACT), we onlly can expect as an inevitable sequence, the replacement of that complex and and energy expensive situation, with an act a Gordian knot solution , which is the somehow, but not strict, guided mutation.


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 Message 124 by Admin, posted 10-20-2012 8:06 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 176 by Taq, posted 10-31-2012 12:44 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 175 of 264 (677650)
10-31-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Taq
10-26-2012 11:48 AM


Re: Please explain
How does DNA regulation guide mutations? Please cite evidence for this claim.
There is the article:Emerging principles of regulatory evolution
1. Benjamin Prud'homme * , ,
2. Nicolas Gompel , , and
3. Sean B. Carroll * ,
"These principles endow regulatory evolution with a vast creative potential that accounts for both relatively modest morphological differences among closely related species and more profound anatomical divergences among groups at higher taxonomical levels. "
These regulatory mechanisms are to me clear indications of non randomness in evolution.
The above work , among many others, shows the possible mechanism that guided mutations follow. When in a epigenetic area , through long periods of epigenetic changes, relevant regulations are havily placed one upon others, ( and this phenomenon is a FACT), we onlly can expect as an inevitable sequence, the replacement of that complex and and energy expensive situation, with an act a Gordian knot solution , which is the somehow, but not strict, guided mutation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Taq, posted 10-26-2012 11:48 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 176 of 264 (677654)
10-31-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by zi ko
10-31-2012 12:26 PM


The above work , among many others, shows the possible mechanism that guided mutations follow. When in a epigenetic area , through long periods of epigenetic changes, relevant regulations are havily placed one upon others, ( and this phenomenon is a FACT), we onlly can expect as an inevitable sequence, the replacement of that complex and and energy expensive situation, with an act a Gordian knot solution , which is the somehow, but not strict, guided mutation.
The mechanism that the authors cite is random mutations in cis-regulatory elements (CRE's) that give rise to novel regulatory pathways that are the passed through natural selection.
quote:
In contrast, a CRE that is functional in a given tissue already contains some of the sites necessary to direct gene expression in that tissue, and therefore it represents a more likely template to accommodate a new expression pattern in that tissue, because a relatively shorter evolutionary path would lead to functional novelty. Consequently, it seems more probable that a novel gene expression pattern in a tissue will arise from random mutations creating binding sites in the vicinity of an existing CRE driving expression in that tissue than from mutations in nonfunctional DNA.
[emphasis mine]

All you have done is outline the selection regime. The source of variation is still random mutations. You have not cited any mechanisms that could guide mutations in a manner that would be non-random with respect to fitness.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by zi ko, posted 10-31-2012 12:26 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by zi ko, posted 10-31-2012 10:09 PM Taq has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 177 of 264 (677697)
10-31-2012 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Taq
10-31-2012 12:44 PM


The mechanism that the authors cite is random mutations in cis-regulatory elements (CRE's) that give rise to novel regulatory pathways that are the passed through natural selection.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In contrast, a CRE that is functional in a given tissue already contains some of the sites necessary to direct gene expression in that tissue, and therefore it represents a more likely template to accommodate a new expression pattern in that tissue, because a relatively shorter evolutionary path would lead to functional novelty. Consequently, it seems more probable that a novel gene expression pattern in a tissue will arise from random mutations creating binding sites in the vicinity of an existing CRE driving expression in that tissue than from mutations in nonfunctional DNA.
The authors just express their fixed belief in randomness ( or could they dare to do otherwise?).They don't bring any new evidence for it. But what kind of random mutatayions are they that are chosen to happen on predetermined places in order to...? Maybe it is time to redefine random mutations. In any case i think they are describing a mechanism of epigenetic changes causing new mutations.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Taq, posted 10-31-2012 12:44 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Taq, posted 11-01-2012 11:25 AM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 178 of 264 (677772)
11-01-2012 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by zi ko
10-31-2012 10:09 PM


The authors just express their fixed belief in randomness ( or could they dare to do otherwise?).
Then why are you citing this paper as supporting guided mutations? Where do they outline a mechanism for guided mutations? Where do they present any evidence that could be considered a mechanism for guided mutations?
In any case i think they are describing a mechanism of epigenetic changes causing new mutations.
Where? I did a word search for both "epigenetic" and "methylation". Those words are not found ANYWHERE in the article. The only mechanism I saw that they discuss is natural selection. For example:
quote:
In theory, the loss of a particular pigmentation pattern could occur by the loss of pigmentation gene expression or the disruption of pigmentation protein functions through mutations in their coding sequences. However, the latter kinds of genetic changes would have substantial collateral effects, affecting all pigmentation patterns and other processes in which these proteins are involved. Many fly pigmentation proteins are also involved in cuticle formation and the metabolism of dopamine, an essential neurotransmitter, and D. melanogaster yellow mutants are notorious for their poor mating success (37, 40—42). Hence, losses of pigmentation through changes in the coding sequences of pigmentation genes are unlikely to be tolerated by natural selection, because their fitness cost is too high.
[emphasis mine]
That is the only guiding that I saw, and it is done after the mutations appear, not before.
Have you actually read the paper? Where do the authors describe epigenetics guiding mutations as you claim?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by zi ko, posted 10-31-2012 10:09 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by zi ko, posted 11-01-2012 5:24 PM Taq has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3620 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 179 of 264 (677823)
11-01-2012 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Taq
11-01-2012 11:25 AM


You seem to support a totally illogical situation: You now forced by the evidence to accept that epigenetic changes, inherited to many generations, accompanied with a lot of regulating mechanisms, loaded in specific epigenetic genome places, you are by your theory obliged to the illogical conclusion that, sudenly due to a random mutation(s) , that leads propably evolution to different direction, are all wiped out and go astray. Even if this paradox genome mutation could happen, evolution remains guided by environment, not only by the process of selection, but also by energetic environmental guidance, through epigenetics intervention, because epigenetic changes dictated by long standing envronmental changes can not be wiped out.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Taq, posted 11-01-2012 11:25 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Taq, posted 11-01-2012 5:37 PM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 180 of 264 (677825)
11-01-2012 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by zi ko
11-01-2012 5:24 PM


You seem to support a totally illogical situation: You now are forced by the evidence to accept that eoigenetic changes, inherited to many generations, accompanied with a lot of regulating mechanisms, loaded in specific epigenetic genome places, sudenly due to a random mutation , that leads propably evolution to different direction, are all wiped out and go astray.
What does that even mean? I really don't understand what you are trying to claim.
The paper you cited is talking about random mutations in regulatory DNA that results in changes in DNA regulation. These changes then pass through natural selection. That is the mechanism in the paper. If that is not the mechanism you are trying to evidence, then why did you cite this paper?
Even if this paradox is happening, evolution remains guided by environment, not only by the process of selection, by energetic environmental through epigenetics intervention.
What about mutations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by zi ko, posted 11-01-2012 5:24 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by zi ko, posted 11-02-2012 10:59 PM Taq has replied

  
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