Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8897 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-18-2019 1:21 PM
136 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,429 Year: 3,466/19,786 Month: 461/1,087 Week: 51/212 Day: 12/39 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1213
14
15161718Next
Author Topic:   About New Lamarckian Synthesis Theory
Taq
Member
Posts: 7672
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 196 of 264 (678115)
11-05-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by zi ko
11-04-2012 7:57 AM


Re: An obvious mistake.
We all know that there is a continous information flow from environment to organisms and even to the genome,plenty of epigenetic changes loaded to particular genome areas, and many REGULATION MECHANISMS,constantly fuctioning.

However, none of these mechanisms guide mutations. Pointing to epigenetics and DNA regulation does not evidence guided mutations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by zi ko, posted 11-04-2012 7:57 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by zi ko, posted 11-05-2012 1:55 PM Taq has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1692 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 197 of 264 (678118)
11-05-2012 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by New Cat's Eye
11-05-2012 10:41 AM


Re: An obvious mistake.
Here are some links:
Read more: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28WrM3RXK
: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28U3Suxqo
I quote
Why Your DNA Isn't Your Destiny
By John Cloud Wednesday, Jan. 06, 2010

Read more: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28WrM3RXK

For deep evolutional changes in multi-cellular organisms, mutations on DNA to be beneficial, need to be prepared by epigenetic phenotype changes, which facilitate these types of mutation. In one cell and other of low organization evolution is endogenously forced by life momentum.
The stress of fear, lack of food, lack of mating opportunities etc., are the main causes of soft or deep changes. As these stresses are empathetically transmitted not only to life peers, but to extant population in wild areas, and to proximal generations , the resultant beneficial mutations are fairly quickly established, reducing the time needed by natural selection to do its work. This long time effect is the main cause of speciation as it expresses deep survival needs.
Beneficial mutations produce many variants, so selection process remains important.
Differences between mono- and multi cellular organisms, in relation to frequency or ratio of random vs guided mutations.
The guiding mechanisms found by Zhang and Saier in one cell organisms are evidence of more complicated such mechanisms in superior life types, where I think are much more common, given the complexity of that life.
Randomness is used regularly by nature as an effective and maybe cheap mechanism for its scopes, so it cant be thought anymore as a random process.

More recently, however, researchers have begun to realize that epigenetics could also help explain certain scientific mysteries that traditional genetics never could: for instance, why one member of a pair of identical twins can develop bipolar disorder or asthma even though the other is fine. Or why autism strikes boys four times as often as girls. Or why extreme changes in diet over a short period in Norrbotten could lead to extreme changes in longevity. In these cases, the genes may be the same, but their patterns of expression have clearly been tweaked.
(See the best pictures of 2009.)

Biologists offer this analogy as an explanation: if the genome is the hardware, then the epigenome is the software. "I can load Windows, if I want, on my Mac," says Joseph Ecker, a Salk Institute biologist and leading epigenetic scientist. "You're going to have the same chip in there, the same genome, but different software. And the outcome is a different cell type."

Read more: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28WjXduTU

.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-05-2012 10:41 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-05-2012 10:49 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1692 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 198 of 264 (678123)
11-05-2012 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Taq
11-05-2012 12:42 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
It doesn't matter if you think it is stupid or not. Random mutations is what the evidence indicates, and you have not presented any evidence that would lead us to consider guided mutations.

If the waste and the stupidity of the idea is proved over any doupt don't you think your pet Darwinian theory is in danger?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here are some links:
http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28WrM3RXK
: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28U3Suxqo


I quote
Why Your DNA Isn't Your Destiny
By John Cloud Wednesday, Jan. 06, 2010
Read more: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28WrM3RXK

For deep evolutional changes in multi-cellular organisms, mutations on DNA to be beneficial, need to be prepared by epigenetic phenotype changes, which facilitate these types of mutation. In one cell and other of low organization evolution is endogenously forced by life momentum.
The stress of fear, lack of food, lack of mating opportunities etc., are the main causes of soft or deep changes. As these stresses are empathetically transmitted not only to life peers, but to extant population in wild areas, and to proximal generations , the resultant beneficial mutations are fairly quickly established, reducing the time needed by natural selection to do its work. This long time effect is the main cause of speciation as it expresses deep survival needs.
Beneficial mutations produce many variants, so selection process remains important.
Differences between mono- and multi cellular organisms, in relation to frequency or ratio of random vs guided mutations.
The guiding mechanisms found by Zhang and Saier in one cell organisms are evidence of more complicated such mechanisms in superior life types, where I think are much more common, given the complexity of that life.
Randomness is used regularly by nature as an effective and maybe cheap mechanism for its scopes, so it cant be thought anymore as a random process.

More recently, however, researchers have begun to realize that epigenetics could also help explain certain scientific mysteries that traditional genetics never could: for instance, why one member of a pair of identical twins can develop bipolar disorder or asthma even though the other is fine. Or why autism strikes boys four times as often as girls. Or why extreme changes in diet over a short period in Norrbotten could lead to extreme changes in longevity. In these cases, the genes may be the same, but their patterns of expression have clearly been tweaked.
(See the best pictures of 2009.)

Biologists offer this analogy as an explanation: if the genome is the hardware, then the epigenome is the software. "I can load Windows, if I want, on my Mac," says Joseph Ecker, a Salk Institute biologist and leading epigenetic scientist. "You're going to have the same chip in there, the same genome, but different software. And the outcome is a different cell type."

Read more: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28WjXduTU

-



This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 12:42 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1692 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 199 of 264 (678124)
11-05-2012 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Taq
11-05-2012 12:42 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
It doesn't matter if you think it is stupid or not. Random mutations is what the evidence indicates, and you have not presented any evidence that would lead us to consider guided mutations.

If the waste and the stupidity of the idea is proved over any doupt don't you think your pet Darwinian theory is in danger?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here are some links:
http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28WrM3RXK
: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28U3Suxqo


I quote
Why Your DNA Isn't Your Destiny
By John Cloud Wednesday, Jan. 06, 2010
Read more: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28WrM3RXK

For deep evolutional changes in multi-cellular organisms, mutations on DNA to be beneficial, need to be prepared by epigenetic phenotype changes, which facilitate these types of mutation. In one cell and other of low organization evolution is endogenously forced by life momentum.
The stress of fear, lack of food, lack of mating opportunities etc., are the main causes of soft or deep changes. As these stresses are empathetically transmitted not only to life peers, but to extant population in wild areas, and to proximal generations , the resultant beneficial mutations are fairly quickly established, reducing the time needed by natural selection to do its work. This long time effect is the main cause of speciation as it expresses deep survival needs.
Beneficial mutations produce many variants, so selection process remains important.
Differences between mono- and multi cellular organisms, in relation to frequency or ratio of random vs guided mutations.
The guiding mechanisms found by Zhang and Saier in one cell organisms are evidence of more complicated such mechanisms in superior life types, where I think are much more common, given the complexity of that life.
Randomness is used regularly by nature as an effective and maybe cheap mechanism for its scopes, so it cant be thought anymore as a random process.

More recently, however, researchers have begun to realize that epigenetics could also help explain certain scientific mysteries that traditional genetics never could: for instance, why one member of a pair of identical twins can develop bipolar disorder or asthma even though the other is fine. Or why autism strikes boys four times as often as girls. Or why extreme changes in diet over a short period in Norrbotten could lead to extreme changes in longevity. In these cases, the genes may be the same, but their patterns of expression have clearly been tweaked.
(See the best pictures of 2009.)

Biologists offer this analogy as an explanation: if the genome is the hardware, then the epigenome is the software. "I can load Windows, if I want, on my Mac," says Joseph Ecker, a Salk Institute biologist and leading epigenetic scientist. "You're going to have the same chip in there, the same genome, but different software. And the outcome is a different cell type."

Read more: http://www.time.com/.../0,9171,1952313,00.html#ixzz28WjXduTU

-



This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 12:42 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 2:29 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1692 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 200 of 264 (678125)
11-05-2012 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Taq
11-05-2012 12:44 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
However, none of these mechanisms guide mutations. Pointing to epigenetics and DNA regulation does not evidence guided mutations.

I am not trying to show how epigenetics pave the way to mutations.Other well equipped scientists will be be able to do this. At present i am satisfied just to show the absurdities of the "classic" theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 12:44 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 2:31 PM zi ko has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7672
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 201 of 264 (678130)
11-05-2012 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by zi ko
11-05-2012 1:44 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
If the waste and the stupidity of the idea is proved over any doupt don't you think your pet Darwinian theory is in danger?

You may think it is stupid for the Earth to move about the Sun, but the reality is that it does. You are commiting the Fallacy of Incredulity:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

We observe that mutations are random with respect to fitness. You have not offered a single observation that demonstrates that mutations are guided.

Here are some links

Where in those links can we find a mechanism that guides mutations?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by zi ko, posted 11-05-2012 1:44 PM zi ko has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7672
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 202 of 264 (678131)
11-05-2012 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by zi ko
11-05-2012 1:55 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
am not trying to show how epigenetics pave the way to mutations.

You need to show how epigenetics guides mutations so that they are only beneficial and do not produce neutral or detrimental mutations. Where have you done that?

At present i am satisfied just to show the absurdities of the "classic" theory.

All you are doing is making an argument from incredulity which is a logical fallacy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by zi ko, posted 11-05-2012 1:55 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by zi ko, posted 11-05-2012 9:53 PM Taq has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1692 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 203 of 264 (678173)
11-05-2012 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Taq
11-05-2012 2:31 PM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
You need to show how epigenetics guides mutations so that they are only beneficial and do not produce neutral or detrimental mutations. Where have you done that?

I many times had said that my theory allows the existance of neutral or deleterious mutations together with beneficial.Nor you ,nor as ST. DAWKINS did, can state a single case of random
mutation leading to new species.so you are not to any advantagious place in relation to my theory. But in addition,you are in the difficult position of explainig that inpropable and totally unuderstandable waste, on the limit of the ubsurddity,of the epigenetic work that was taken place in each organism over thousands of years.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Taq, posted 11-05-2012 2:31 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Taq, posted 11-06-2012 11:26 AM zi ko has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 264 (678185)
11-05-2012 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by zi ko
11-05-2012 1:13 PM


Re: An obvious mistake.
Well, you have made some progress. Thanks for linking to additional info. But unfortunately, all you linked to was an opinion article. There's no real meat there for me to digest. And, it has nothing to do with guided mutation. You said you're content with discrediting the current paradigm, but, unfortunatetly, your opinoin piece does't really go against the current theory. I realize you don't give a shit about having any kind of scientific support for you idea, so I'm not going to waste any more of my time arguing with you about it at this time. Maybe in the future I'll tell you again how you have no leg to stand on and that you're full of shit. Good day sir.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by zi ko, posted 11-05-2012 1:13 PM zi ko has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7672
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 205 of 264 (678262)
11-06-2012 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by zi ko
11-05-2012 9:53 PM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
I many times had said that my theory allows the existance of neutral or deleterious mutations together with beneficial.

Then what is the point of guided mutations?

Nor you ,nor as ST. DAWKINS did, can state a single case of random mutation leading to new species.

Compare the human and chimp genome. The differences between those genomes are the result of random mutations.

But in addition,you are in the difficult position of explainig that inpropable and totally unuderstandable waste, on the limit of the ubsurddity,of the epigenetic work that was taken place in each organism over thousands of years.

That is an argument from incredulity. I don't need to explain your difficulty in accepting reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by zi ko, posted 11-05-2012 9:53 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by zi ko, posted 11-07-2012 6:55 AM Taq has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1692 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 206 of 264 (678342)
11-07-2012 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Taq
11-06-2012 11:26 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
I many times had said that my theory allows the existance of neutral or deleterious mutations together with beneficial.

Then what is the point of guided mutations?


Guidance is loose, just to restrict the needed number of random mutations.
Compare the human and chimp genome. The differences between those genomes are the result of random mutations.
They equally well could due to the procedure of loose guidance.
That is an argument from incredulity. I don't need to explain your difficulty in accepting reality.

Reality is the big issue. How can we know it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Taq, posted 11-06-2012 11:26 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Larni, posted 11-07-2012 7:09 AM zi ko has not yet responded
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 11-07-2012 10:43 AM zi ko has responded
 Message 211 by kofh2u, posted 11-09-2012 8:05 AM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 8.1


Message 207 of 264 (678343)
11-07-2012 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by zi ko
11-07-2012 6:55 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
What you appear to be saying is that you don't understand 'x' and maybe 'y' is explainition.

Just because you don't understand 'x' does not mandate that 'y' is true. It could be true but one can only judge based on the evidence.

Do you see, now?

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by zi ko, posted 11-07-2012 6:55 AM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7672
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 208 of 264 (678366)
11-07-2012 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by zi ko
11-07-2012 6:55 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
Guidance is loose, just to restrict the needed number of random mutations.

If you buy more lottery tickets does the lottery cease to be random?

They equally well could due to the procedure of loose guidance.

Based on what evidence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by zi ko, posted 11-07-2012 6:55 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by zi ko, posted 11-08-2012 10:18 AM Taq has responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1692 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 209 of 264 (678467)
11-08-2012 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Taq
11-07-2012 10:43 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
Guidance is loose, just to restrict the needed number of random mutations.

If you buy more lottery tickets does the lottery cease to be random?

This analogy does not fit to reality so it is unfortunate. We don't have more tickets, but less numbers to choose from. There some difference.

Based on what evidence?
About metazoans, on the same amount of evidence you have for randomness, and with no any scientific obligation to to give any account of why such a usefull work done by epigenetics for many many years in a species has to be ignored by true science and and has to become useless and go astray .


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 11-07-2012 10:43 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Taq, posted 11-08-2012 4:34 PM zi ko has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7672
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 210 of 264 (678496)
11-08-2012 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by zi ko
11-08-2012 10:18 AM


Re: The ubsurdity of "classic" elolution Theory.
This analogy does not fit to reality so it is unfortunate. We don't have more tickets, but less numbers to choose from. There some difference.

How so?

About metazoans, on the same amount of evidence you have for randomness,

What is that evidence?

and with no any scientific obligation to to give any account of why such a usefull work done by epigenetics for many many years in a species has to be ignored by true science and and has to become useless and go astray .

The account is that mutations are random, so detrimental mutations do occur. I have been giving you the account from the very start of this thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by zi ko, posted 11-08-2012 10:18 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by zi ko, posted 11-11-2012 9:25 AM Taq has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1213
14
15161718Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019