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Author Topic:   The Simplest Protein of Life
BoredomSetsIn
Junior Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 10-01-2012


Message 1 of 281 (674632)
10-01-2012 9:00 AM


The Ribonuclease protein is the simplest protein that we know of, and can be considered the most basic building block of a cell. It is made from 124 amino acids, the first one in the strand being Lysine. There are 17 different amino acids in this protein, so to simplify it, lets say that there is a 1/17 chance of Lysine coming first. The second one in line, is Glutamic acid. The odds of it coming second are 1/289. Then comes Threonine. Chances of it coming 3rd are 1/4913. If we continue down the list, the end result is 1 followed by 552 zeroes. To put that in perspective, It's the same as a poker player drawing 19 royal flushes in a row, with out trading in any cards. If this is a million: 1,000,000. And this is a billion: 1,000,000,000. And this is a trillion: 1,000,000,000,000, We still have 546, 543, and 540 zeroes to go, respectively. To conclude, I think the chances of a living cell forming from chemicals that just happened to bond, is ridiculously unlikely.

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BoredomSetsIn
Junior Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 10-01-2012


Message 6 of 281 (674718)
10-02-2012 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by dwise1
10-01-2012 2:55 PM


When did I ever say this has to do with evolution??

Let's go back to my question...

The Ribonuclease protein is the simplest protein that we know of, and can be considered the most basic building block of a cell. It is made from 124 amino acids, the first one in the strand being Lysine. There are 17 different amino acids in this protein, so to simplify it, lets say that there is a 1/17 chance of Lysine coming first. The second one in line, is Glutamic acid. The odds of it coming second are 1/289. Then comes Threonine. Chances of it coming 3rd are 1/4913. If we continue down the list, the end result is 1 followed by 552 zeroes. To put that in perspective, It's the same as a poker player drawing 19 royal flushes in a row, with out trading in any cards. If this is a million: 1,000,000. And this is a billion: 1,000,000,000. And this is a trillion: 1,000,000,000,000, We still have 546, 543, and 540 zeroes to go, respectively. To conclude, I think the chances of a living cell forming from chemicals that just happened to bond, is ridiculously unlikely.

First of all, bravo to all of you. The first person failed to respond properly, but I brought something away from the second and third persons posts.

"And every biologist in the world agrees with you. That is indeed not how living cells are produced: the chemicals don't "just happen to bond". Well done."

Maybe you can elaborate on that? I am unaware as to how the bonds form, so enlighten me.

"Insulin is around 50 amino acids, and there are simple ferredoxins such as the 78 amino acid ferredoxin from Bacillus schlegelii"

I have acknowledged that, but half the things in the link didn't make sense to me.

source 1..78
/organism="Bacillus schlegelii"
/db_xref="taxon:1484"
Protein 1..78
/product="ferredoxin"
mat_peptide 2..78
/product="ferredoxin"
Region 4..65
/region_name="COG1146"
/note="Ferredoxin [Energy production and conversion]"
/db_xref="CDD:31341"
Region 33..56
/region_name="Fer4"
/note="4Fe-4S binding domain; pfam00037"
/db_xref="CDD:200947"
CDS 1..78
/coded_by="D29804.1:8..244"
/note="7Fe type ferredoxin"
/transl_table=11

I did notice the 1..78. But I think a little more research is required before I come to conclusions.

"You are committing the Sharpshooter fallacy. There is no reason that life must have this protein. There are trillions and trillions of other proteins that life could have developed early on. You are simply painting the bull's eye around this target and ignoring the fact that things could have been different."

Ribonucleoprotein (RNP) is a nucleoprotein that contains RNA, i.e. it is an association that combines ribonucleic acid and protein together. A few known examples include the ribosome, the enzyme telomerase, vault ribonucleoproteins, RNase P, hnRNP and small nuclear RNPs (snRNPs), which are implicated in pre-mRNA splicing (spliceosome) and are among the main components of the nucleolus. 'RNP' can also refer to ribonucleoprotein particles, distinct intracellular foci for post-transcriptional regulation.

This is taken from wikipedia. I'd think its probably pretty important. And if its not needed for life, why would it evolve.

And speaking of evolving...

"Rather, we would expect a protein to have evolved from a predecessor, which is far more probable, approaching inevitable."

I was unaware proteins could evolve...and of course something the human eye has never witnessed is inevitable.

"Also, you falsely claim that every single one of those 124 amino acids positions on that protein are specified for one and only one amino acid."

I never said that. Read carefully. The other versions don't matter right now.

"To do a proper job of creating your probability analysis for creation ex nihilo (since it has nothing to do with evolution) would be to determine the exact requirements. For example, in the notes for their two-model class, Drs Thwaites and Awbrey give the example of a calcium-binding site on a protein. Consisting of 29 amino acid positions, only 2 positions (7%) require specific amino acids, 8 positions (28%) can be filled by any of 5 hydrophobic amino acids, 3 positions (10%) can be filled by any one of 4 other amino acids, 2 positions (7%) can be filled with two different amino acids, and 14 of the positions (48%) can be filled by virtually any of the 20 amino acids. You would erroneously calculate the probability of that calcium-binding site just falling together ex nihilo as being (1/20)29 (there are 20 amino acids, not 17, so your original calculations were flawed in that respect as well), which would be 1.86e-38. However, because of the variety of amino acids that most of the positions would allow, the ex nihilo probability would actually be 3.05e-12, 26 orders of magnitude greater (ie, more probable). But then, neither calculation has anything to do with evolution, do they?"

Actually, there are 24 amino acids. And I'm sorry, I guess the way I said it is rather vague.

"There are 17 different amino acids in this protein, -------->so to simplify it<-------, lets say that there is a 1/17 chance of Lysine coming first."

"But then another mistake you made was assuming just one player, just one attempt. You just came up with a probability (which was wrong) for a single event, when actually that single event would be played out many times over, so in reality you would need to come up with the probability that, given a very large number of trials (each attempt is called a "trial"), you would never once have a single success. As it turns out, with enough trials the probability of constant failure becomes vanishingly small."

Actually, even giving the protein the maximum time frame to form, that being about 4 billion years I think it is, as an educated guess, I think that there would have to be an attempt of forming the protein once almost every day. But honestly I have know idea. You do the math. And I'm unsure as to how long one of these trials would take anyway.

"Which brings us to yet another of your many mistakes. I've just been dealt a hand. What is the probability of my having been dealt that particular hand? 3.20641e-9? No, the probability is 1.0, dead certainty. It is a fixed point in time; it has already happened. Nothing can possibly change the fact that that is the hand that I had just been dealt. Now, what is the probability that I will be dealt the exact same hand again? Now that would be 3.20641e-9.

IOW, it is meaningless to build a probability argument based on what has already happened. Because the probability of something that has already happened is and will always be 1.0, dead certainty."

Yes, but we are talking about the chances of it forming, with out a creator. So, since we are talking about an unconfirmed theory, I believe its fine to talk about the chances of something happening like this.

And to answer you question, I did some of the calculations. The rest I got out of my biology book. But give me a break, I'm in grade 9.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by dwise1, posted 10-01-2012 2:55 PM dwise1 has responded

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