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Author Topic:   The Simplest Protein of Life
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 142 of 281 (676156)
10-20-2012 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Taq
10-18-2012 11:11 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
Hi Taq,

taq writes:

Also, the presence of oxygen and the lack of fossils also demonstrates that life can exist without a direct fossil record.

If there are no fossils how do you prove there was life?

Wouldn't all you would have would be an assumption?

God Bless


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Taq, posted 10-18-2012 11:11 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Panda, posted 10-20-2012 9:13 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 10-22-2012 1:10 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 143 of 281 (676158)
10-20-2012 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Larni
10-19-2012 8:09 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
Hi Larni,

Larni writes:

Why?

Because time is a concept of man that he invented to measure duration.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 10-19-2012 8:09 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Larni, posted 10-20-2012 5:57 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 153 by onifre, posted 10-20-2012 12:33 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 144 of 281 (676161)
10-20-2012 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Taq
10-18-2012 11:18 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
Hi Taq,

Taq writes:

I don't really see how abiogenesis research is limited to Earth. If panspermia is true then life originated somewhere through processes that would have been the same as those on Earth, or the same as on meteors/comets in our own solar system. The field of abiogenesis is really only trying to find possible routes of how life could originate, not how life could originate on Earth and Earth only.

Why couldn't life have began on earth as Darwin said on page 490 of the 1859 “The Origin of the Species”?

quote:
Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death,
the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving,
namely, the production of the higher animals,
directly follow. There is grandeur in this view of life,
with its several powers, having been originally breathed
into a few forme or into one ; and that, whilst this planet
has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity,
from no simple a beginning endless forms most
beautiful and moat wonderful have been, and are being,
evolved.

Darwin seemed to think life produced the first life forms on earth.

Science has proven by experiment that life produces life. It also has proven that non-life can not produce life.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Taq, posted 10-18-2012 11:18 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 1:45 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 209 by Taq, posted 10-22-2012 1:13 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 148 of 281 (676189)
10-20-2012 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by NoNukes
10-20-2012 1:45 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

How did science prove that? Surely you aren't referring to those experiments that show that bacteria and maggots don't spontaneously generate in soup broth, old meat, and jars of peanut butter?

I was referring to all the experiments where they have tried to create life.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 1:45 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 149 of 281 (676190)
10-20-2012 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Larni
10-20-2012 5:57 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
Hi Larni,

Larni writes:

Can you support that?
For example, does radioactive decay only occur after people appeared?

Does radioactive decay need time to know it decays? The answer is no.

For mankind to measure the duration in existence that radioactive decay takes place they need time.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Larni, posted 10-20-2012 5:57 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Larni, posted 10-20-2012 3:00 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 151 of 281 (676193)
10-20-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Panda
10-20-2012 9:13 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
Hi Panda,

Panda writes:

Since there is no fossil record of god nor jesus, that is probably not an argument you want to make.

I don't have any problem with going there.

On the other hand you would not want to go there.

I believe by "FAITH" that God and Jesus exist.

You have to believe by faith that life began to exist as you have no evidence.

Panda writes:

Much like oranges not being the only fruit; fossils are not the only evidence.

Now you are going to tell me that since life exists today it had to begin to exist as we present it to have began it's existence.

But if there is other evidence of how that first life form began to exist other than fossils would you please present it?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Panda, posted 10-20-2012 9:13 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Panda, posted 10-20-2012 4:48 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 152 of 281 (676195)
10-20-2012 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Percy
10-20-2012 11:12 AM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

Revising my previous suggestion, I now suggest that we only reply to Al or ICANT (or anyone, for that matter) when they happen to touch rationally upon the topic. Something about the simplest protein, I think.

Do you have any evidence of how the simplest protein or life form began to exist?

Since proteins are manufactured by orders that are placed by the DNA in a cell, wouldn't the information in the DNA be required before the protein could begin to exist?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Percy, posted 10-20-2012 11:12 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 4:44 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 10-20-2012 5:19 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 211 by Taq, posted 10-22-2012 1:17 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 173 of 281 (676290)
10-21-2012 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by NoNukes
10-20-2012 4:44 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

In other words, we don't have to identify the exact process or even the exact simplest proton that actually formed the basis of life on the planet. The question can even be answered if life did not begin through abiogenesis.

You can know it exists without knowing how the simplest protein began to exist.

But without knowing how the simplest protein began to exist you can not say whether it is impossible or possible for the simplest protein to begin to exist guided or unguided.

NoNukes writes:

In essence you are asking a form of the chicken and the egg question.

I thought everybody knew the answer to that question.

The chicken came first.

Are you saying the information was not required before the protein could begin to exist?

NoNukes writes:

Some molecule serving some of the roles of primitive DNA, could manufacture a chemical useful for a self replicating molecule. That chemical would be a protein, even if we could not truly call that primitive primitive molecule DNA.

Whatever that molecule was it had to have the information required to form the first protein.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by NoNukes, posted 10-20-2012 4:44 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by NoNukes, posted 10-21-2012 7:06 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 186 by onifre, posted 10-21-2012 7:07 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 174 of 281 (676293)
10-21-2012 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
10-20-2012 5:19 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

The opening post asks about the ribonuclease protein, which is relevant to one of the abiogenesis hypotheses where the first life used RNA instead of DNA. As has been pointed out in this thread many times, the ribonuclease protein of the earliest life may have borne little resemblance to modern versions.

DNA carries the genetic information to produce proteins. The DNA carries the information of a cell and consists of thousands of genes. Each gene serves as a recipe on how to build a protein molecule.

The flow of information from the genes determines the protein composition and thereby the functions of the cell.

When a protein is needed the proper gene is transcribed into RNA removing all non-codeing parts.

This information is then transported outside of the nucleus where the information is transcribed creating the specified protein in the ribosome.

This is the known method of creating a protein.

If information is required to produce a protein now why would it not have been required for the first protein?

If information was not supplied for the first protein then all the amino acids had to come together in the correct order by chance, but you say that would be incredibly unlikely.

The question is where did the information come from?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 10-20-2012 5:19 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 10-21-2012 3:04 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 188 by onifre, posted 10-21-2012 7:15 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 175 of 281 (676295)
10-21-2012 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Larni
10-20-2012 3:00 PM


Re: Your case is lost...
Hi Larni,

Larni writes:

Are you saying length is a human construct?

No.

Length exists.

Humans have devised a series of numbers that they have declared to be the numbers used to measure increments of that length.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Larni, posted 10-20-2012 3:00 PM Larni has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 178 of 281 (676304)
10-21-2012 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
10-21-2012 3:04 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

It is believed that the complex molecules of life and the information they contain developed over time through a process of repeated cycles of modification and selection, because this is the kind of process we observe in life today.

Yes there are those who believe that.

Information theory disagrees with information increasing by modification and selection over time without outside input.

There are many that believe life forms was created by a supernatural being.

Darwin said on page 490 of The Origin of the Species:

quote:
There is grandeur in this view of life,
with its several powers, having been originally breathed
into a few forme or into one ; and that, whilst this planet
has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity,
from no simple a beginning endless forms most
beautiful and moat wonderful have been, and are being,
evolved.

Darwin believed some life form produced the life on earth. Whether is was with many life forms or with one.

But you are saying that because things change today by modification and selection over time that life began to exist in the same way.

That is an assumption for which there is no evidence.

And then there is me who believes life has always existed in some form.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 10-21-2012 3:04 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Percy, posted 10-21-2012 5:11 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 190 of 281 (676336)
10-21-2012 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Percy
10-21-2012 5:11 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

Copying errors during replication add information to genomes today, and in the same way copying errors would have added information to ancient replicators leading up to the first life.

Yes I understand when you have a cell and is replicates it's self that copy errors occur.

But for one error to occur you have to have a living organism that has at least one cell to replicate.

Errors are a natural part of DNA Replication.DNA

DNA has a highly sophisticated means of fixing those errors.

Immediately after replication proofreading takes place where 99% of errors are corrected.

Immediately after proofreading the mismatch repair takes place.
During the mismatch repair cycle the new strand is compared to the old strand and corrected to match the old strand.

Most mutations are bad.
Very few are good.

The only cells that can transfer mutations to the next generation are the ones in the egg or sperm cells.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Percy, posted 10-21-2012 5:11 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Taq, posted 10-22-2012 1:23 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 191 of 281 (676337)
10-22-2012 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by NoNukes
10-21-2012 7:06 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

So what? Information can be generated without a guided process.

Can you produce some information that was generated without a guided process?

If you can please do.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by NoNukes, posted 10-21-2012 7:06 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Coyote, posted 10-22-2012 12:13 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 10-22-2012 8:50 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 193 of 281 (676341)
10-22-2012 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by Coyote
10-22-2012 12:13 AM


Re: New information
Hi Coyote,

Coyote writes:

I believe that this answers your question.

Well a picture of a snowflake is not information.

There is no blueprint or genetic code that guides the growth of a snowflake, yet marvelously complex structures appear, quite literally out of thin air.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Coyote, posted 10-22-2012 12:13 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by NoNukes, posted 10-22-2012 1:00 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 195 by Coyote, posted 10-22-2012 1:12 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 196 by Larni, posted 10-22-2012 3:38 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 35 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 201 of 281 (676358)
10-22-2012 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Percy
10-22-2012 8:50 AM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

We already know you don't understand information theory, there's no need for you to go about proving it yet again. Perhaps you could find a thread where information theory is the topic and we'll have another go at helping you understand it.

I understand information theory enough to know that to have a language, information you must have:
A transmitter.
A receiver.

DNA is the transmitter and the ribosome is the receiver.

The information transmitted has alphabet, grammar, meaning and intent.

Every cell in a human body contains all the information needed to build that human body.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Percy, posted 10-22-2012 8:50 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Percy, posted 10-22-2012 12:56 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 216 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-22-2012 5:28 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
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