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Author Topic:   The Simplest Protein of Life
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 36 of 281 (675617)
10-13-2012 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by zaius137
10-13-2012 3:21 AM


Sharpshooter fallacy
Maybe you do not understand probability; it must describe a predicted outcome. The five cards you chose followed a prediction or else you are not testing a probability, you are gathering data. Funny, it is like betting on a horse race after the race is over… I like those odds.

Percy has made an attempt to explain your error. I'll make a second attempt.

quote:
"Importantly, Hubert Yockey has done a careful study in which he calculated that there are a minimum of 2.3 x 1093 possible functional cytochrome c protein sequences, based on these genetic mutational analyses (Hampsey et al. 1986; Hampsey et al. 1988; Yockey 1992, Ch. 6, p. 254).

If Yockey had found only one possible functional cytochrome c protein sequence, would that increase or decrease the probability that a functitonal sequence had formed without guidance?

According to your logic, a smaller number than 2.3 x 1093 would mean an increased possibility of forming functional cytochrome C protein sequences in an unguided process. Of course that would simply be wrong.

When you deal out a deck of cards, every combination of cards is equally improbable. It would be a simple matter to look at the cards you receive after the fact and to say that you have received an improbable hand. In fact, once you sat down at the table, the odds of receiving an improbable hand under that definition were essentially 100%.

He is very critical of the primordial soup theory of the origin of life, and believes that "the origin of life is unsolvable as a scientific problem."

Is this an enemy of my enemy is my friend argument? Is this really a supportive opinion? Is Yockey really supportive of the arguments you make here?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by zaius137, posted 10-13-2012 3:21 AM zaius137 has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 281 (675697)
10-14-2012 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Percy
10-14-2012 9:43 AM


don't know why you're having trouble finding it since it's the Yockey citation you provided in your Message 33:

I think Taq provided the citation. Message 33 belongs to Taq. Zaius137 did referred to the quote in a later message, but not in a way that ought to make him responsible for the initial citation. I think it is legitimate for zaius137 to ask for a source.

That said, we can follow the footnotes at the link Taq provided. The Yockey footnote is to a textbook I don't have access to.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Percy, posted 10-14-2012 9:43 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Percy, posted 10-15-2012 8:58 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 145 of 281 (676162)
10-20-2012 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by ICANT
10-20-2012 1:36 AM


Re: Your case is lost...
It also has proven that non-life can not produce life.

How did science prove that? Surely you aren't referring to those experiments that show that bacteria and maggots don't spontaneously generate in soup broth, old meat, and jars of peanut butter?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2012 1:36 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2012 10:58 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 281 (676225)
10-20-2012 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ICANT
10-20-2012 11:22 AM


Re: Revised Suggestion
Do you have any evidence of how the simplest protein or life form began to exist?

Percy is correct. Your question is not relevant.

The topic of this thread is whether it is impossible that the simplest protein could be formed by an unguided processes. Any possible, not prohibitively improbable process for forming such a protein would allow answering the question.

In other words, we don't have to identify the exact process or even the exact simplest proton that actually formed the basis of life on the planet. The question can even be answered if life did not begin through abiogenesis.

Since proteins are manufactured by orders that are placed by the DNA in a cell, wouldn't the information in the DNA be required before the protein could begin to exist?

Some molecule serving some of the roles of primitive DNA, could manufacture a chemical useful for a self replicating molecule. That chemical would be a protein, even if we could not truly call that primitive primitive molecule DNA.

In essence you are asking a form of the chicken and the egg question. Those questions should not be taken seriously.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ICANT, posted 10-20-2012 11:22 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2012 1:21 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 170 of 281 (676271)
10-21-2012 10:40 AM


When titans collide
In this thread I see nothing but chaos. It is no longer impossible to tell who the truly insane are.

Some things to consider carefully when you see a post so far wrong that you must respond:

1. Perhaps the poster is a troll, and cares little for his/her own reputation. Your response is the attention the troll craves.

2. Perhaps the poster is insane and can learn nothing from even the most rational of arguments. You cannot heal the insane.

Yeah, I know. I should follow my own advice.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 185 of 281 (676325)
10-21-2012 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ICANT
10-21-2012 1:21 PM


Re: Revised Suggestion
But without knowing how the simplest protein began to exist you can not say whether it is impossible or possible for the simplest protein to begin to exist guided or unguided.

That's wrong. Just because the simplest protein began one way does not mean that it is impossible to produce that same protein, or another feasible simplest protein with a completely different process.

ABE:

Let me provide an argument by analogy. I don't know how the first water molecule was formed, but I can form any number of water molecules by burning hydrogen gas.

Are you saying the information was not required before the protein could begin to exist?

I was pretty clear about what I meant. To use the chicken or egg example, the theory of evolution would suggest that the first chicken hatched from an egg laid by something that was not quite a chicken using a strict definition, even though the layer would have been only slightly different from the hatched. In that scenario, the question of what came first would be without meaning. The chicken did not precede the egg it hatched from, but the egg was not strictly speaking a chicken's egg.

Whatever that molecule was it had to have the information required to form the first protein.

So what? Information can be generated without a guided process.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ICANT, posted 10-21-2012 1:21 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by ICANT, posted 10-22-2012 12:04 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 194 of 281 (676343)
10-22-2012 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by ICANT
10-22-2012 12:31 AM


Re: New information
There is no blueprint or genetic code that guides the growth of a snowflake, yet marvelously complex structures appear, quite literally out of thin air.

That is rather the point. We can describe the snowflake using an information stream. In other words we can provide a bit stream that corresponds exactly to the configuration of the snowflake. We know that the snowflake is not random, but is regular, so the bitstream does not represent random non-information, but has information content; content that was manufactured out of thin air.

But why am I explaining this to you? You understand information theory, right? You mentioned some back in Message 178 where you said the following:

ICANT writes:

Information theory disagrees with information increasing by modification and selection over time without outside input.

Oh, wait. That was nonsense. Information theory says no such thing. You just said that in order to further an argument, and without checking to see if it were true.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Well, you may still have time to register to vote. Even North Carolinians can still register for early voting. State Registration Deadlines


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ICANT, posted 10-22-2012 12:31 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
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