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Author Topic:   Yet another Congressman who doesn't accept the theory of evolution
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6306
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 211 of 231 (677256)
10-28-2012 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 1:40 PM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
God commands us to hate evil. That is exactly what I do on here. I hate the evil you guys spread and I treat you accordingly.

Now that makes for stimulating debate. So you are admitting that you are nothing but a troll and have no interest in honest debate?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 1:40 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


(6)
Message 212 of 231 (677264)
10-28-2012 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 2:00 PM


You shouldn't necessarily stop believing something because all of the evidence shows your belief to be false.

Yeah, you pretty much should.

There is something to be said for intuition.

No, there's nothing to be said for it. Intuition isn't a magic sixth sense, it's how cognitive biases in your mind manifest. They make you "feel" like some things are true regardless of whether they are or not.

If we stopped believing something because all of the evidence shows the belief to be false, then there would be times when not all the evidence was available and when that evidence did become available, our belief would turn out to be vindicated.

So? The point of knowledge isn't to be right every single time, or to get ahead of the evidence so that you can turn out to have been right before everybody else. It's not to be "loyal" to ideas and not betray them - they're ideas, they don't care whether we're fair-weather friends or not. The point of knowledge and evidence is to hold the most defensible position at any point in time, based on what is known at that point in time. When the state of knowledge changes, you should change with it.

Now, maybe you're thinking "but, if I did it that way, I'd be wrong a lot! I'd have to change my mind about stuff when I learned new things, and I might even have to admit I was wrong!" Well, yes. But what's wrong with doing any of that? Especially when you stand to gain so much in terms of an accurate understanding of what's going on around you?

Knowing and understanding how things work is incredibly powerful. It gives you an unparalleled ability to influence other people, to change the world around you, to solve problems and reduce suffering - or to cause it, if that's your deal. I would prefer people use their knowledge for the betterment of those around them, but the truth is, the power of being a fair-weather friend to ideas is vast regardless of whether it's used for good or ill. You should ask yourself why you would want to close yourself off to that power for nothing more than loyalty to something - an idea - that can't know whether you ever were, or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 2:00 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
foreveryoung
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Posts: 920
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 213 of 231 (677288)
10-29-2012 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Larni
10-28-2012 3:33 PM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
No he doesn't . You are just showing your ignorance motivated by bigotry.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Larni, posted 10-28-2012 3:33 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by vimesey, posted 10-29-2012 2:52 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded
 Message 215 by Percy, posted 10-29-2012 7:28 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded
 Message 216 by Larni, posted 10-29-2012 8:09 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
vimesey
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Posts: 960
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


(1)
Message 214 of 231 (677304)
10-29-2012 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:55 AM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
He kind of does, actually:

Lev. 20:13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

This is God talking directly to Moses.

(Just to be clear, this isn't intended to be a personal attack on you, foreveryoung, but if we're going to discuss biblical literalism (which is where the congressman's quotations are coming from), then we need to be clear about what the bible says (within the confines of translational accuracy, of course)).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:55 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18491
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 215 of 231 (677314)
10-29-2012 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:55 AM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
I've opened a thread for discussing issues like how you feel about everyone else and how everyone else feels about you: Foreveryoung Discussions

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:55 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Larni
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Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 216 of 231 (677321)
10-29-2012 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:55 AM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
Maybe you read the Bible and find out exactly what it says instead of parroting what you have been told by people?

There are several other verses that say gay people would be killed. You would know this if you did not relly on other people to think for you.

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Romans 1:26-27 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

Edited by Larni, : Bible bits


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:55 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 10-29-2012 10:26 AM Larni has responded

    
jar
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Posts: 30994
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 217 of 231 (677346)
10-29-2012 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Larni
10-29-2012 8:09 AM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
Actually Larni only one of those verses you quote mined says anything about the person being killed.

But it still has nothing to do with the topic.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Larni, posted 10-29-2012 8:09 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Larni, posted 10-29-2012 10:38 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 218 of 231 (677347)
10-29-2012 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
10-29-2012 10:26 AM


Re: Are you wrong about everything
You are right, of course.

I thought a bit of Biblical context was in order as FEY was characteriing motivation and knowledge of myself as a result of his ignorance about his religion and I simply had to bring it up.

Not the most on topic of posts though, I cannot disagree.

Edited by Larni, : Last two sentences added about an hour later.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 10-29-2012 10:26 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
Taq
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Posts: 7914
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 219 of 231 (677374)
10-29-2012 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 2:00 PM


Like I said, christians don't believe what God says in his word because of the evidence. Likewise, they don't stop believing what God says in his word because all of the evidence shows the belief is false.

"First, . . . to want to affirm that in reality the sun is at the center of the world and only turns on itself without moving from east to west, and the earth . . . revolves with great speed about the sun . . . is a very dangerous thing, likely not only to irritate all scholastic philosophers and theologians, but also to harm the Holy Faith by rendering Holy Scripture false."--Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615

I would hope that you believe that the Sun moves about the Earth, otherwise you will have to stop believing what the word of God says.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 2:00 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 220 of 231 (677390)
10-29-2012 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 2:00 PM


If we stopped believing something because all of the evidence shows the belief to be false, then there would be times when not all the evidence was available and when that evidence did become available, our belief would turn out to be vindicated.

Yes, there would. And there would also be times when if we went on believing something when all the evidence shows that it's false we would not ever be vindicated, it would in fact be false, and we'd go to our graves being stubborn idiots.

At least if we go by the evidence we are trying to be right. We may sometimes fail, but we are more likely to fail if we don't even try. A man who tries to run his fastest may lose the race, but he's more likely to lose the race if he doesn't try to run his fastest. The same applies to the search for truth: we can try our hardest to do what we can with what we've got and still fail, but we are more likely to fail if we don't even try.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 2:00 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18491
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 221 of 231 (677396)
10-29-2012 2:21 PM


ForeverYoung Thread
I created a thread for discussing ForeverYoung so that this thread could stay focused on the topic: Foreveryoung Discussions.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-29-2012 2:30 PM Percy has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 222 of 231 (677401)
10-29-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Percy
10-29-2012 2:21 PM


Re: ForeverYoung Thread
And as you did not mention his epistemology in the OP, but made it about personal attacks from and against him (which does not, BTW, suit your role as moderator) then that is not the right place to put my reply.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Percy, posted 10-29-2012 2:21 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Percy, posted 10-29-2012 2:41 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18491
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 223 of 231 (677403)
10-29-2012 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Dr Adequate
10-29-2012 2:30 PM


Re: ForeverYoung Thread
Hi Dr A,

I'm not in my role as moderator - I'm just a participant trying to have a discussion about the topic. It's just a Coffee House thread. My introductory post wasn't meant to be interpreted so strictly. Discuss anything you like about and with ForeverYoung and his opinions about everyone over there, because then at least you'll be on-topic.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-29-2012 2:30 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-29-2012 3:23 PM Percy has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7914
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 224 of 231 (677412)
10-29-2012 3:06 PM


As a general reply, I have no problem with elected officials holding religious beliefs. I feel that what one believes or does not believe should not be a hurdle to elected office.

At the same time, no elected official should be writing laws whose sole justification is "because the Bible says so". We live in a secular society ruled by a secular constitution. Our laws need to have a secular justification. So what is the secular justification for removing the Big Bang, evolution, etc. from science classes? From what I can see, there is no secular justification. The only justification given is a religiously based one. Sorry, but that does not pass the sniff test, or the Lemon test for that matter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman


  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 225 of 231 (677418)
10-29-2012 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Percy
10-29-2012 2:41 PM


Re: ForeverYoung Thread
I'm not in my role as moderator - I'm just a participant trying to have a discussion about the topic. It's just a Coffee House thread. My introductory post wasn't meant to be interpreted so strictly.

Well, NoNukes is also an ordinary participant who is not posting as a moderator, so I guess I'll leave it up to him how strictly we should interpret his introductory post. It's just a Coffee House thread, as you so rightly point out.

Given this latitude, I think I'm more on-topic seriously replying to foreveryoung's post in the thread in which he posted it than replying to it in a thread in which he didn't post it but which for some reason the administrator of these forums has set up for the sole purpose of dogpiling on one member. I do not in fact want to argue with him about whether he's a good Christian, I want to talk about how people should respond to evidence, a question which is in fact central to this thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Percy, posted 10-29-2012 2:41 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Percy, posted 10-29-2012 3:51 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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