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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 671 of 2467 (855598)
06-20-2019 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by Stile
06-20-2019 1:26 PM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
Stile writes:

Abiogenesis is the beginning of life where none existed before.

See how there's no mention of "God" in that sentence?

Sure, but there is no mention of any other explanation either. Without an intelligent root cause, there only remains the acceptance of a virtually infinite number of mindless and extremely fortuitous processes that have resulted in life as we know it.
Take your pick; an intelligent root cause or a mindless one.
Personally I can't pump up enough faith to accept the latter choice. However, you seem to be claiming that you have proven that to be the case.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by Stile, posted 06-20-2019 1:26 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 687 by Stile, posted 06-21-2019 9:15 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 692 of 2467 (855668)
06-21-2019 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 687 by Stile
06-21-2019 9:15 AM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
GDR writes:

Sure, but there is no mention of any other explanation either. Without an intelligent root cause, there only remains the acceptance of a virtually infinite number of mindless and extremely fortuitous processes that have resulted in life as we know it.
Take your pick; an intelligent root cause or a mindless one.
Personally I can't pump up enough faith to accept the latter choice. However, you seem to be claiming that you have proven that to be the case.

Stile writes:

I am only claiming that I Know That God Does Not Exist.

So far - no one has been able to come up with an argument that shows the opening post to be in error.

But you missed the point. To know that God does not exist then you have to also know that the only other option can be proven to be correct and you haven't done that at all.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by Stile, posted 06-21-2019 9:15 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by Stile, posted 06-21-2019 12:33 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 697 of 2467 (855695)
06-22-2019 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Stile
06-21-2019 12:33 PM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
Stile writes:

I don't think there's "only one other option."

What is another option.?

Stile writes:

I just know that this option of God existing has been attempting to go on for thousands of years.
After all that searching - we still only find nothing whenever we look at where God should be.

Just where have we looked? Where do you think God should be?

Maybe God is somewhere in the 95.5% of the universe we don't perceive.

The search by various religions is not to figure out so much as to where God might be, but to try out sort out what the nature of God is and what that should mean to our lives.

Most religions have agreed that something along the liine of the "Golden Rule
at least plays a part of that, and in the case of Christianity it is fundamental.

Even if I accept your argument about finding God where we think He should be, (which I don't), it doesn't mean that we won't in the future. There are numerous question in the field of physics which we don't have answers to yet, but hopefully will in the future. You are treating this like you would a question of science so why should a search for God be any different. All you can say is that we haven't found God yet, but you can't "know" that we won't in the future.

You have shown no actual basis that supports your premise.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Stile, posted 06-21-2019 12:33 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2019 3:47 AM GDR has responded
 Message 763 by Stile, posted 06-24-2019 8:43 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 762 of 2467 (855853)
06-24-2019 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 698 by Tangle
06-22-2019 3:47 AM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
Tangle writes:

Well if we're talking about your Christian god, he lives in heaven with his angels and saints which is a real place just above the earth. Every Christian until a few hundred years ago believed that to be true because it's written in their book and their shaman told them.

But of course it wasn't true. So now believers have to invent something else which just happens - as always - to be just outside science's knowledge.

I doubt you'll find many sane people now saying that heaven is physically real - but there will be plenty of others that do, you have to be raptured to somewhere.

So now this god entity is apparently beyond time and space so conveniently undetectable. And yet he is supposed to routinely intervene in human life, speaking directly to individuals in revelations, performing miracles, guiding the development of life on our planet.

And yet everywhere we look for evidence of these interactions with our world we find nothing. Miracles are fiction, prayers aren't answered, our planet's development uses unguided natural forces and processes and there's no objective evidence of any personal conversations with any god.

After all this time and all this effort, nothing. This god of yours is being pushed further and further away in search of 'places' to hide from us. You've now got a virtual god.

This is the same old stuff. It is right off topic. For starters it isn't about the Christian God.

Stile claims that he knows god does not exist. He hasn't been specific about which God. The god that Stile describes is simply any intelligence that is responsible for life. He is claiming that he knows that such an intelligence does not exist. If he is correct then the only other option is that we are the result of non-intelligent fortuitous, random processes, and it follows logically then that he knows that is correct. Therefore to prove his basic premise he has to prove that to be true. He hasn't been able to show how he knows that to be true so he has completely failed to make his point.

All that he, and you, for that matter has been able to show is that an intelligent cause hasn't been proven to exist.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Tangle, posted 06-22-2019 3:47 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 775 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2019 3:29 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 764 of 2467 (855857)
06-24-2019 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 763 by Stile
06-24-2019 8:43 AM


I know that God exists
Stile writes:

I don't know, I've never studied such a thing.
What do the experts say?

You stated that you don’t accept that there are only the options of there being an intelligent first cause for life or a non-intelligent first cause. Now you say that you don’t know what the other options are. I’m still saying that if you know one of the options to be false then you have to know that the other option is true. It is simple and you keep dodging around that point.
Stile writes:

Wherever the experts (religious leaders/believers) say He should be.
Every time they claim a place - we look and He's not there.
Or they claim a place that no one can look at:
1. That's irrational - therefore, can be ignored.
2. Sometimes we make advancements and gain knowledge and are then able to search that place - and still fine He's not there.


Well I, and I imagine most theists fall into the latter category. We have 5 senses which is all we have to perceive our physical world yet, we know that we know that we don’t perceive the vast majority of what exists. There was a headline in Scientific American a few years ago that read: “Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter – An entire universe may be interwoven silently with our own”. Essentially though you are claiming because humans have been unable to pin point a location for any deity then you can “know” that no intelligent cause for life exists, and so we are back again to having to know that there are only non-intelligent causes for life.
GDR writes:

Maybe God is somewhere in the 95.5% of the universe we don't perceive.

Stile writes:

Just like Santa Claus.

This is simply a case of mocking the beliefs and myself and millions of others to try and make a point, and really isn’t worth responding to. However, Santa Claus is claimed to be a human, physical being, occupying a specific place on our planet. I and other theists, with a possible few exceptions, make no such claim for a deity.
GDR writes:

Even if I accept your argument about finding God where we think He should be, (which I don't), it doesn't mean that we won't in the future.

Stile writes:

Again - just like Santa Claus.

That is a pathetic response. See my answer above.

Stile writes:

The very first post still fully supports my position.
You seem to be keen on forgetting about it, though. Stop ignoring it, and respond to it:
Quote:________________________________________
• How do we "know" things?
We first start with the assumption that it is possible for us to know anything about the existance we find ourselves in.
We then take what data we can find and analyze it.
• How do we "know" negative statements about the existance of things?
Example: "I know that Sharkfin soup does not exist on McDonald's menu."
This is a clear example. Obviously the way we know this is to look at McDonald's menu to see if Sharkfin so up is available. If it is is not there, this statement is correct. If it is there, the statement is false.
Example: "I know that Santa Claus does not exist."
This is more like the "I know that God does not exist" claim. But, again, the idea is the same as the previous example. We look for where the thing is supposed to be (North Pole? Chimneys during Christmas Eve night?) and see if the thing is there or not. In the case of a 'being', we are also able to check to see if certain things are done that this being is supposed to do (do presents appear underneath Christmas trees or in stockings hung on the fireplace mantle?)
• But how do we *"know"* for sure-sure's and absolute truth's sake?
We don't.
But this is not a problem with "knowing" anything. We can't really ever *"know"* anything, e ven positive things.
I drove to work today, it would be extremely rational and reasonable for me to say "I know my car is in the parking lot." Of course I don't
*"know"* that as it could have been stolen. But saying so is still rational and reasonable. It is rational and reasonable because it is based upon the data I have found and analyzed. In obtaining new data (say, walking outside and noticing my car is missing), it is rational and reasonable to update my position.
• Therefore, I know that God does not exist.
I, and many other people, have looked for where God is proposed to exist for almost the entirety of human history. It is possible that "God's existance" is the most looked for thing ever. But no data has ever been obtained that indicates God's existance. We have also analyzed some of the things God has been proposed to have done (w orld-wide flood, bringing happiness/peace). And, again, the data results are no different than if God does not exist at all.
Therefore, after obtaining the data and analyzing it, my position is that I know that God does not exist.

OK Let’s use those points. Using the points that you start off with you have summarized how you come to your conclusion in the last paragraph so I’ll use that.
I, and many other people have looked for the answer of why we exist for almost the entirety of human history. As our knowledge has evolved we have considered the idea that we exist simply as the result of mindless chemical processes, that have resulted in mindless particles combining to form conscious, intelligent and even moral life forms, with no intelligent root cause. With all the research that has been done, we haven’t been able to determine why anything that we perceive exists or why the processes exist that have brought about life, or how intelligence evolved from mindlessness. Therefore, I can clearly know that we are not the result of blind mindless processes.
As I have said and you haven’t been able to refute the obvious point that we can have resulted from either blind, random mindless processes ,or from intelligence which we can call God or whatever else we like. I have shown by your method that we can’t be the result of blind, random mindless processes. Therefore then, I can know that God exists.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by Stile, posted 06-24-2019 8:43 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 769 by Stile, posted 06-24-2019 10:36 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 773 of 2467 (855878)
06-24-2019 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 769 by Stile
06-24-2019 10:36 AM


Re: I know that God exists
Stile writes:

Let's get back to the beginning on this.
I'm saying I know that God doesn't exist.
You seemed to imply that this meant that I also know exactly how life originated without an intelligent first cause (God.)


No, I’m not saying that you have to know exactly how life originated without an intelligent first cause. I’m simply saying that you have to know that it did originate without an intelligent first cause. If I claim that I know that life exists because of an intelligent first cause, then I am also saying that I know that life doesn’t exist because of a non-intelligent first cause.
You are claiming that you know we are not the result of an intelligent first cause so as a result of that claim you also need an explanation for how it is that you know we are the result of non-intelligence.
Stile writes:

I'm telling you that I don't need to know the specific way life originated without God to know that God doesn't exist.

OK
Stile writes:

If you're just trying to imply that I'm saying "yes, I know that life originated without God" - then yes - that's what I'm also saying, because God doesn't exist.

Exactly, knowing that we are not referring to any specific god, but only an intelligence responsible for life.
Stile writes:

If you're trying to expand this to imply me saying "yes, I know that life originated without external-from-Earth input" - no - I'm not saying that because I'm only saying that I know God doesn't exist.

How would you want to name that external-from-earth input? Wouldn’t that external –to-earth entity be a deity if it is responsible for life?
Stile writes:

If you're trying to expand this to imply me saying "yes, I know how life on Earth originated through natural processes" - no - I'm not saying that because I'm only saying that I know God doesn't exist.


I’m not saying that you have to know how it happened through only natural sources without an intelligent root and simply saying that in order to prove your premice you have to know that it happened that way.

Stile writes:

Is that clearer?


You clarified your position but I understood you that way before. I’ll try and make my point clearer.
You cannot know that we are not the result of external intelligence then you have to also know that we are not the result of an external intelligence.

Stile writes:

That is a pathetic response. See my answer above.
How so?
If, as described, - there should be something at the North pole or something around Christmas putting presents in stockings... and we never find anything at the North pole or anything-other-than-people-filling-stockings at Christmas... how does this imply that we "could see such things in the future?"
Just like with God.
We don't find God creating happiness or joy or love or friendship or heroism.
We always find people creating such things.
We don't find God punishing evil - we always find people punishing such things.
We don't find God in the sun or in nature or in thunder or lightning or the clouds or the sky - we always find nothing but natural processes.
In this same way, none of this seems to imply that we will see anything in the future either.
In fact, it seems to imply that we will continue to find nothing in the future - if we rationally follow the pattern.


OK then. I suppose what we really need is an agreed to definition of God. My definition would be ; any external pre-existing intelligence that is responsible for life as we know it. With that definition your point isn’t made. However if you want to argue against the Christian God then it is a different argument altogether. I was simply assuming a theistic vs atheistic discussion.
Stile writes:

If we 'know' things don't exist by looking for them where they are supposed to be and not finding them... (like Santa Claus or Sharkfin soup on McDonald's menu)
And we look for God where He is supposed to be...
...and we don't find Him.
...then we know that God doesn't exist.

But as I theist I do not know “where” a deity is supposed to exist. I just believe that this entity does exist but without any specified “where”.. Also as I mentioned, “where” from a human perspective only has meaning when we talk about our perceived localities. (Straight to Jupiter and turn right for 3 ½ light years for example.)
Stile writes:

Your method (n utshell):
If we are created by a process of mindless particles...
...then we know that we are not the result of mindless particles...

Sort of except my argument isn’t simply about mindless processes but about processes mindless or otherwise that don’t have an intelligent root. A process can be set in motion with an intelligent cause to then continue without further direct intelligent input.
BTW, It is very impressive that you came up with that last response in as short a time as you did. I am envious.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 769 by Stile, posted 06-24-2019 10:36 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 774 by Stile, posted 06-24-2019 3:15 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 777 of 2467 (855903)
06-24-2019 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 774 by Stile
06-24-2019 3:15 PM


Re: I know that God exists
Before I reply Stile I need to know the answer to this. Your opening title is: "I Know That God Does Not Exist". You did not say a god with a small g although I agree that you capitalized all the other words as well. But in order to discuss the issue we need to know your definition of "God" in this context. I don't believe that you have given us that definition as yet.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by Stile, posted 06-24-2019 3:15 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by Stile, posted 06-25-2019 8:15 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 779 of 2467 (855914)
06-24-2019 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 778 by Tangle
06-24-2019 4:44 PM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
As near as I can tell Tangle we are on the same side in this discussion Don't let it go to your head.

AbE Having had second thought on this I am going to have to go along with my signature and say humbly that will have to try and not let it go to my head.

Edited by GDR, : Honest humility.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2019 4:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 780 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2019 5:26 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 781 of 2467 (855919)
06-24-2019 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 780 by Tangle
06-24-2019 5:26 PM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
Just edited my previous post.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2019 5:26 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 809 of 2467 (856077)
06-26-2019 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 801 by Dredge
06-25-2019 10:57 PM


Re: Of Spirits and the After-Life
Dredge writes:

… as if that fool knew. Christopher Hitchens - a creepy, dysfunctional bull**** artist who had to continually drown his godless misery in alcohol. That depressing loser was an embarrassment to humanity. The only time he was happy was the moment he died.


This is the kind of hate mongering that Jesus spoke out so strongly against.
Dredge writes:

Catholic can't believe what they like - they must accept all the doctrines and dogmas of the Church.

This is simply another false idol that Jesus also spoke out strongly against. This is what happens to those who worship and make a false idol out of their church, or as in the case with others who make a false idol out of the Bible by saying it is inerrant.

The kind of hate speech in the first quote is what happens when it is no longer about Jesus but about an inerrant church or an inerrant Bible. It is Christianity, not Bibleianity or churchianity.

Personally as a committed Christian I found that Hitchen's condemnation of the idea that God ordered genocide and public stoning in the Bible, to be more Christ like than those who try and justify it. It is totally incompatible with Jesus' command to love one's enemies.

Edited by GDR, : Should proof read more


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by Dredge, posted 06-25-2019 10:57 PM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 928 by Dredge, posted 07-02-2019 12:13 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 931 by Dredge, posted 07-02-2019 12:23 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 817 of 2467 (856145)
06-27-2019 8:19 PM


You're not looking hard enough
I kinda left this topic behind as Tangle was already doing a better job with that angle of attack than I could do anyway. I’ll try and find another way. This is from your OP.
Stile writes:

This is more like the "I know that God does not exist" claim. But, again, the idea is the same as the previous example. We look for where the thing is supposed to be (North Pole? Chimneys during Christmas Eve night?) and see if the thing is there or not. In the case of a 'being', we are also able to check to see if certain things are done that this being is supposed to do (do presents appear underneath Christmas trees or in stockings hung on the fireplace mantle?)


In this case you are referring of course to Santa Claus but it is talking about the question of where do you look for God. As a Christian I’d like to talk about where I find God. I’d like to use the following story, (although there are numerous of examples I could use), as it happened near where I grew up and because mu brother was personally involved with the situation.
Quote from here
quote:
As Canadians reel from the tragedy of a school shooting in northern Saskatchewan on Friday, an Alberta father who lost his son in a school shooting nearly 17 years ago recalled the horror of that day.

“It’s hard to imagine a more painful situation for people than losing a child,” said Rev. Dale Lang.

“It’s something no one should ever have to go through. Now there’s more people going through the same thing.”

On April 28, 1999, a 14-year-old student walked into Taber’s W.R. Myers high school and opened fire with a sawn-off .22 calibre rifle, killing Lang’s 17-year-old son Jason and injuring another boy. The incident took place eight days after the Columbine high school massacre in Colorado.

Lang remembered the tension and confusion as he was told over the phone that Jason had been rushed to hospital. All he knew was that it was “serious”.
When he discovered it was a school shooting, Lang was shocked.
“When you live in Canada, you don’t expect to hear anybody ever say that to you,” he said.

“It’s hard to imagine you’re actually sitting there, waiting to hear news about something so unbelievable.”

When Lang’s son died, the former Anglican minister and his wife turned to their faith. Despite their pain and anger, they tried to find forgiveness for their son’s killer, who was the victim of severe bullying from a young age.
“It didn’t make me angry at him, it made me feel sad for him,” said Lang.
“Our faith allowed us to forgive this young man, as early on as the memorial service for our son,” which was just five days after Jason’s death.

Lang became a public speaker on the subject, telling audiences across Canada of the importance of healing and forgiveness. He also heard from other parents who had lost children, and their own experiences grappling with sadness, anger and forgiveness.

“The problem will be if you can’t reach that place of forgiveness, then you’re going to get stuck in that place of anger and bitterness,” said Lang.
“Forgiveness is not saying it’s okay or acceptable, it’s saying that I’m choosing to let go of this for my own health and to move on in life.”
While the La Loche investigation continues, Lang sympathized with the family and friends of victims who will now have their own difficult grief process to work through after another school tragedy.

“It’s really bad that we have people ending up in places where they don’t get the help and support they need and they end up doing something horrible like this.”


It doesn't mention here but Dale Lang ministered to the shooter while he was in custody.

The point is that I look for God in the hearts of people like Dale Lang and I find Him there. I look for God in the hearts of people like Jean Vanier and I find Him there. I look for God in human activities such as the Truth and Reconciliation Commission led by Desmond Tutu.

Maybe the problem is that when you look for where God might be you just aren’t looking hard enough.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 830 by Stile, posted 06-28-2019 9:35 AM GDR has responded
 Message 833 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-28-2019 11:27 AM GDR has responded
 Message 899 by Dredge, posted 06-30-2019 11:23 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 832 of 2467 (856183)
06-28-2019 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 830 by Stile
06-28-2019 9:35 AM


Re: You're not looking hard enough
Stile writes:

You find him on a personal, subjective, irrational level - and this is perfectly fine.
If we look in exactly the same place on an objective, rational level - we don't find God there. We just find people doing people-things.


I agree that my views as I expressed them were subjective. On one level they are personal. It is personal as well fro millions of others.

I don't agree that it is irrational. We exist. We have consciousness. We have intelligence. We understand morality. Is it any more rational to believe that we are the result of non-consciousness; non-intelligent; non-moral chemical processes or of a conscious intelligent root for the processes involved in the formation of life as we know it.

My views may be subjective but that doesn't make them wrong. In the case of Christianity I do objectively know that the NT writers claimed that they had objective evidence of the resurrection. I subjectively believe them. You subjectively don't believe them. Neither of us objectively know the truth.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Stile, posted 06-28-2019 9:35 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 840 by Stile, posted 06-28-2019 12:22 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 841 by PaulK, posted 06-28-2019 12:38 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 839 of 2467 (856202)
06-28-2019 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 833 by Sarah Bellum
06-28-2019 11:27 AM


Re: You're not looking hard enough
Sarah Bellum writes:

When you say "I look for God in the hearts of people like Dale Lang and I find Him there. I look for God in the hearts of people like Jean Vanier and I find Him there. I look for God in human activities such as the Truth and Reconciliation Commission..." you are speaking poetically, not literally.
The fact that people may do good is not evidence that there is a deity.

That POV though assumes that the only way that we can perceive God is through physicality as perceived by our 5 senses. I subjectively believe that my wife loves me and find confirmation of that by how she treats me. I believe that God works through the hearts of humans and I find that confirmed by the actions of people who live out lives of altruistic sacrificial love of others.
I agree that my view is subjective but I don't see it as poetic. I just see it as the still small voice of God in all of us that we can respond to or reject.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 833 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-28-2019 11:27 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 842 by Stile, posted 06-28-2019 12:40 PM GDR has responded
 Message 844 by Sarah Bellum, posted 06-28-2019 2:03 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 850 of 2467 (856224)
06-28-2019 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 841 by PaulK
06-28-2019 12:38 PM


Re: You're not looking hard enough
PaulK writes:

Yes, it is. We have some pretty good ideas about the origins of morality, some understanding of intelligence and if consciousness is largely mysterious you’d still be getting into an argument from ignorance.

..but you are doing the same thing. You point to "ideas" about how morality evolved and you can talk about processes all the way back to the BB if you like. But, ultimately those processes had either an intelligent basis for their existence or a non-intelligent basis.

Just take evolutionary theory. It is an incredible process. Being incredible means it lacks credibility, but still, there it is. It is well evidenced. Then the question is, it more credible to believe that something that appears incredible is the result of intelligence or the result of virtually infinite series of incredible processes?

If my view is irrational then so is yours.

PaulK writes:

That seems thoroughly irrational to me, to throw away the progress we are making in understanding these issues in favour of a pile of assumptions.


I certainly don't advocate throwing it away. It answers an entirely different question than what I am talking about. That progress in knowledge is simply finding about how life as we know it happened, not why those happenings exist at all.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by PaulK, posted 06-28-2019 12:38 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 854 by PaulK, posted 06-28-2019 4:56 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5058
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 852 of 2467 (856227)
06-28-2019 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 842 by Stile
06-28-2019 12:40 PM


Re: You're not looking hard enough
Stile writes:

I agree with this (the analogy to loving-your-wife.)

I subjectively believe my wife loves me and continually obtain confirmations about that.
But I always subjectively believe that she loves me more than a rational analysis of the confirmation would allow.

I subjectively love my wife.
My love for my wife is irrational.
(Again - same context for irrational - not "silly or stupid" but simply - a concept that is claimed to exist when no evidence-for-the-existence exists itself.)

And I think my irrational love for my wife is stronger and more powerful (to me) than any possible rational analysis could provide.
I think my irrational love for my wife is better than any rational love for anything could ever be.

But... if someone asked me if my wife existed. Like, say... the government looking to identify her for a passport:
-I wouldn't tell them about how much I loved her
-I would send them copies of her birth certificate and current pictures in the format they require
-I would send the rational, objective evidence
-because the irrational idea that I-love-my-wife-more-than-anything means nothing to someone looking to see if she exists or not in a rational, reasonable context


But I'm not arguing about objective evidence. You subjectively love your wife and she loves you. That love produces what Dawkins' likes to call memes. Those memes as subjective or poetic if you like actually have had a physical effect on your life. I'm suggesting that we have a God meme that effects our life in a similar way that loving and being loved has on us. That love meme that you share with your wife is evidence that your wife actually exists and I would make the same argument for a God meme.

Stile writes:

I see my love for my wife as both subjective and poetic
Also - I'll get a kiss if she happens to see this

Hope that works out for you.
Stile writes:

I see it as people being people - using subjective feelings as an explanation for something they can't explain.
Of course - this is not rational, and should be ignored in the context of a rational, reasonable analysis of reality.


But I don't agree that it can be ignored as I pointed out above. You are claiming knowledge based on incomplete evidence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 842 by Stile, posted 06-28-2019 12:40 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 947 by Stile, posted 07-02-2019 9:41 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
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