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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 15931 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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AnswersInGenitals Member Posts: 650 Joined: Member Rating: 3.9
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Raph (not Ralph), you (and Stiles also) should check out 'oxytocin',
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6626 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
Oh. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6626 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.0
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Yes, it kind of is. At least IMHO. If we can come to terms on belief, a near impossible task but bear with me, then either your side wins the war (not) or all religions ... all religions ... fail. I attack belief, religion, as irrational. Not reflective of reality, highly prone to manipulation and as such is a continuing danger to societies. To our species. I know. It's a big job, but somebody's gotta do it.
Well he can't seem to do it himself. He needs warriors. Live ones. Ones that can bleed and die.
If this isn't my intellect whose is it? More importantly, can I swap it out for something considerably better? I'm thinking Feynman class. No, I don't want to be him, I just would like to have that level of intellectual ability. If you could arrange that for me Phat, that would be great. I'd put you back on my baby-eating dinner guest list? Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Raphael Member Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
I mean fair. There have been many trying to "sell a product," here on evc and all throughout history. In earlier years I myself have probably done the same haha (avoid my posts from 10 years ago here at all costs lol). But that's not really where im at personally. Frankly, I'm more interested in understanding your perspective more than anything else. I ascribe to be more of a listener these days. I hope that is coming across.
Nope! Haha. I mean for sure, the first couple statements are close. But words are important. I am religious, but just as much as you. You're just religious about different things. I don't think you actually agree with that definition for religion The problem again lies in the fact that you are targeting a very specific hermeneutic, painting with a broad brush and rejecting it wholesale. That's cool with me, because I reject it too (probably, lol, I'd have to ask more questions to fully know). For example, do I "Hold to the Biblical Genesis account?" I guess, but probably not in the way you assume I do. As for my goal here, while I do believe God has revealed Himself to the world in order to lead us to more authentic, healthy, and more joy-filled humanity, and I would love for you to experience it, I'm not really attached to the specific "vengeance-based" system you pointed out. In fact I probably oppose that view as much as you do lol. Ironically, and I don't think I've really done enough listening to make this claim, but at the risk of assuming myself, you strike me far more as a religionist
But I'm not insisting you believe anything. Haha. You can choose to believe what you'd like. I'm only concerned with any misrepresentation from your end. It's ok to be honest and admit I don't fit within the framework you put me in. There are plenty of believers and religionists in scientific, non-religious and anti-religious circles, just as there are plenty of evidence-based and logical thinkers in what you would call "religious" circles. To not acknowledge this would be pretty naïve imo.
Perfect! So then you already know approaching this conversation with an epistemology bias towards the scientific method doesn't work
I hear that of course. I'm fine to limit the discussion to the bare essence, I just feel you haven't taken into account that there are a multiplicity of ways to perceive and understand the bare essence, if that makes sense. The proof is that I do not represent the positions you have assumed I do. I agree that faith - "belief" as you say - is essentially my creed. But it is faith attached to a specific story and system, not belief in a vacuum. Essentially what I'm trying to get across is there are many ways of understanding the ideas you have attacked and dismiss. My hopewould be that there are ways of understanding these issues you would be a lot more comfortable with.
I actually agree! I have been deeply formed by acculturation to be religious, just as you have been deeply formed by acculturation to be anti-religious. Haha. It goes both ways, friend. I'm comfortable with the unproveable faith gaps in my worldview. How do you feel about yours?
I suppose so. But I do not claim to speak for them, I only claim to speak for me. So speak to me, not them
I hear and value your belief (faith choice) to not believe in my god Raph
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Raphael Member Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
Haha! I jest, in all honesty you're not, though if I recall back in the Dreamcatcher days we had quite a few bouts
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6626 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
So you do believe in a supernatural being. That seems enough to start with.
Everything else involved in a specific creed is not important. You believe. You believe in the god of Genesis. Yet, you don't believe in the full narrative of the Genesis account. Interesting. But not now.
Quite the contrary, the scientific method is known as the only method that does work, if by 'work' we mean accurately modeling the reality being examined. My bias is not negotiable. The science rules.
No, but that's why god made explanations. What different ways are you perceiving the question? The bare essence, to me, is the fact that you believe in a supernatural being, specifically YHWH. You believe this being is actual, real, has influence over this universe, has worked his special will on this universe, with a special interest in Earth and a tribe of violent destructive people in the Levant. Despite my political comments is this pretty much correct? Have we filled in the vacuum?
I understand that. That's why we narrow the target, eh the subject, to the most basic concept reasonable. The only idea I wish to attack and dismiss is this concept of belief.
Thank you, but I am quite comfortable with my understanding of things.
I hate 'em. That's why I'm a scientist. Gotta fill those holes. Problem is every time we fill a hole, new ones open up. It's a never ending cycle of endless hole filling. Endless learning. And god I do love it so, like the smell of cordite in the morning.
So now you're going to tell me how special your god is over all the others. You realize that's been beat to death, right? Hardly seems to matter. They are all pretty much the same. Other than for different hair styles, fancy dress, various numbers of arms, hands, faces, they're all pretty much the same. But, before I ask my major question, you seem to have some issues you feel need addressing. Please do. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Phat Member Posts: 15931 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
*Tags raph.* I'll step in the ring for a moment, Raph. Go have a Gatorade...or some Holy Water. I aim to sprinkle a ton of it on AZPauls lawn, just to keep his ego in check.
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So you wish to fill every hole. With the substance that all of society MUST agree on, correct? It wont happen. Take that to the Supreme Court!
Edited by Phat, : spelling Edited by Phat, : No reason given. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6626 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.0
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Of course, Phat. Interest is a personal thing that develops deep in the mind. Your interests appear to be god, salvation, and a whole lot of other quite human concerns. Doesn't mean you are right or wrong in your interests. There is no right or wrong to interest. It just knocks around inside your head. You determine what interests you. We'll argue about whether the results of your interests are accurate, reasonable and like that.
Of course I am allowed and vise versa. First, that is what the art of persuasion is all about. Second, society could not function if minds could not change.
I can try. Superstition has ruled humanity for millennia and it's been an unmitigated disaster of blood, torture and death. Rationality is just dawning in our species on a societal level. We are not only allowed, it is imperative that we elevate reality to the position of prime decision maker. Superstition needs to die. Or at most relegated to childhood fantasies. I even chaffe at that.
And so it is. For an isolated individual we know how religion can salve a human mind in distress. There are better ways to do that but religion is a useful vector in a lot of people. But on a societal level, inter-group interactions, superstition with it's disconnect from reality has been a bloody disaster to all humanity. Superstition often rips away empathy and compassion leaving a collective mind susceptible to manipulation. Mob rule. Riot. Crusades. Superstition bad, Phat. Very bad.
Of course he is, Snowflake. Just like all the others. If I were god, we would not be having this conversation. I'd be off haunting Joel Osteen and Peter Popoff with blisters and boils.
Well not so much me, though I appreciate the elevated status you grace me with, but, science? Yah, it's well past time this species gave up on superstition and embraced reality in most if not all things.
What are you talking about? Of course all have the right to their thoughts. That does not mean those thoughts are realistic, logical, moral. I'm out to persuade. I'm allowed to attempt that. Just like you evangelizing.
Since the analogy is about filling those holes with actual real knowledge gleaned from observation, yes, I wish to fill every hole in our knowledge with a substance that cannot be realistically challenged - facts from reality.
The court already knows answers always lead to more questions. And the court, as I understand it, is more involved with scrutinizing the law than science. Science hasn't stopped, Phat. We're filling those holes as fast as we can and entire new fields of new questions keep popping up. It will never end. A glorious eternity of learning. Science. Nirvana.
Fairytale. If he existed in reality at all and was actually crucified then he is dead. As for Raph, note that I got the name right, I want to challenge the basis for his belief. I don't think he will break down in existential angst. He seems strong enough. Don't worry. I'll keep my asshole insultive tendencies to a minimum. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6626 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
Ok, I'm slow. I just realized what you're doing, Phat.
You think I'm a demon out to destroy Raph's faith. You honestly believe that, don't you. Phat, Phat, Phat. How perceptive and yet how damn dumb at the same time. If given the opportunity, yes, I will poke and prod at his belief system. Yes, if I could convert him to BEA (baby-eating atheism) I would be ecstatic but I realistically don't hold out much hope of that. This is for the spectator, the lurker. That's why I let him know he represents more in this talk than merely his own interests. In challenging Raph's view I will, I hope, be challenging all belief systems based on superstitious BS. I'm not going to convert anybody, maybe. I'm not going to destroy anyone's life like your creed requires you do to people. (oooo, you're going to hell, heathen demon) I aim to challenge the thought process of superstition and expose its weaknesses and fatalities. In doing so, I hope that in some small way the lurkers and spectators will help our society move away from the scourge of superstition. This is an excellent example of just the BS I'm talking about. Demonize the opposition as a step to adding hate to the formula. Your god sucks. But then that's pretty much what you would expect a demon to say. Better burn me at the stake just to be safe. Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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jar Member Posts: 33885 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
Fortunately, all the evidence shows that the God Phat created is totally powerless and impotent, unable or afraid to even show itself.
Now the crazies that believe in Phat's creation should rightfully be feared but certainly not the picayune creation Phat markets. My Website: My Website
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6626 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
So, do I have to burn?
Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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jar Member Posts: 33885 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
Only if you want to.
My Website: My Website
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 6626 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
No, no, thank you. I think I'll pass. I don't want to burn.
So, is that it? Am I done? I don't have to burn? Or is there something I need to do to affect my do not burn status? Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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jar Member Posts: 33885 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.8
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Yes, there is something you have to do to affect your do not burn status.
You need to love your neighbor as yourself, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, protect the helpless, educate the children, shelter the homeless. How you do that is totally open. You can do it individually or collectively; through direct action or through social action; as one person or as part of a society. My Website: My Website
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