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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2508 of 2747 (880520)
08-07-2020 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2503 by Phat
08-06-2020 12:15 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

To some, a universe that began with nothing more than chemicals makes more sense than a Creator.

Phat what chemicals are you talking about? You have heard as many times as I have that there is nothing outside of the universe. Meaning it was a self contained universe as cavediver told us. So logically speaking there was non existence. Logically if there is non existence there is no universe to expand. That means Stephen Hawking was wrong when he concluded he had proved there was no need for a God. Logically speaking no God no universe, but we are here. Positive proof that there is a God.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2503 by Phat, posted 08-06-2020 12:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2516 by Phat, posted 08-11-2020 6:54 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2522 of 2747 (880824)
08-11-2020 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 2516 by Phat
08-11-2020 6:54 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

This is ringos argument, not mine.

I know what your belief is. I just wanted to know about what chemicals you were talking about.

If there was an absence of existence there could be no place for chemicals to exist or anything else.

Phat writes:

They will even claim that I have no argument but only an assertion.

All of their assertions are based upon assumptions.

Phat writes:

The soapbox critics here at EvC do not realize that "In The Berginning..Chemicals" is as much made up as any God hypothesis. Unless they are inferring the chemicals in their own minds!

Did you mean their brains?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2516 by Phat, posted 08-11-2020 6:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2527 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 6:55 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2523 of 2747 (880863)
08-13-2020 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2519 by Tangle
08-11-2020 11:14 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Hawking did not believe that the universe had a creator,

Sure he believed in a creator. He just called it an instanton.

Tangle said Hawking wrote writes:

But now science offers a more convincing explanation,

"We don't know," is not a more convincing explanation.

Do you have a better answer?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2519 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2020 11:14 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2524 by Tangle, posted 08-13-2020 3:22 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2529 of 2747 (880907)
08-13-2020 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 2524 by Tangle
08-13-2020 3:22 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Hawking was an atheist and did not believe in a creator.

Then why did he invent imaginary time and the instanton.

According to the Standard theory the universe had to have a beginning to exist.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2524 by Tangle, posted 08-13-2020 3:22 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2531 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2020 2:10 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2530 of 2747 (880912)
08-14-2020 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 2525 by Phat
08-13-2020 6:23 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:

This stuff is way over all of our heads, but essentially ICANT is correct.

ICANT is probably wrong. If I could have a conversation with Stephen Hawking right now I could find out because he has all the answers to all his questions now.

Hawking says the universe has not always existed.

If it has not always existed then it had to have a beginning to exist as it does exist today.

Stephen Hawking is no longer available but I searched through my posts and found many of his lectures.

In a public Lecture "The Beginning of Time" Hawking said:

quote:
In this lecture, I would like to discuss whether time itrself has a beginning, and whether it will have an end. All the evidence seems to indicate that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology. Yet it is now taken for granted.

So since Hawking could not believe in God being the first cause of the existence of the universe, he invented imaginary time which is vertical in existence in which his instanton could exist and create the universe we see today.

The problem with that is there is no such thing as imaginary time. So all he had was his assumptions.

You guys have mentioned singularity several times and I would like to remind you that cavediver, and Son Goku spent about 3 years trying to get me to understand that the singularity does not exist.

When the math gets to the point it makes no sense that is what is called singularity.

In other words it gets to the point there is non existence as the math can go no further.

That is the reason I kept asking and still ask what existed at T=0 which represents that time does not exist.

No one knows what existed at T=0. The best scientific answer to my question is "we don't know". I don't think anybody really cares as they have swallowed the assumptions.

But we do know according to the standard theory that at T=0-43 the universe existed and was expanding at about 82.4 kilometers per second per megaparsec in every direction.

There is no evidence for the existence of the universe at T=0-43 only an assumption that it did exist.

The Standard Theory is supposed tell us everything after that. But it has a lot of problems that still needs fixing.

Phat they have a problem accepting our God created the universe.

I have often wondered why they think we should accept their version of creation?
There is no evidence and no one knows how the universe began to exist. We are just supposed to believe they are right and take them at their word because they are much smarter than we are, according to them.

They think our God is an impersonal God. That is because they have never met Him and come to know Him. They have never met Him because they have been deluded into believing a lie by the master of deception of this earth.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2525 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 6:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 2535 by DrJones*, posted 08-14-2020 10:24 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2532 of 2747 (880915)
08-14-2020 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 2528 by ringo
08-13-2020 1:27 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

There is no "answer that I want". More questions hopefully lead to more understanding. I don't want to stop learning when I have "the answer" like you.

Then I assume you know how the universe was created.

That being the case you should be able to answer my question. What existed at T=0?

God Bless,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2528 by ringo, posted 08-13-2020 1:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2536 by ringo, posted 08-14-2020 12:10 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2533 of 2747 (880916)
08-14-2020 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2531 by Tangle
08-14-2020 2:10 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Tangle

Tangle writes:

Hawking believed that the universe could create itself.

Why are you Christians so damned dishonest? Just read what he himself says. He was an atheist.

So he believed in creation and a creator even though it was his instanton.

Hawking believed his assumption that what he imagined that he called an instanton could create a universe just like the one we live in.

The problem is there is no place for the instanton to pop into existence. So he had to invent imaginary time (which runs vertical not on a time line.) in order to have a place for the instanton to pop into existence.

Below are 4 assumptions that must be true for Hawking's self creating universe to exist today.

Assumption 1 imaginary time existed with a vacuum in it.
Assumption 2 instanton popping into existence.
Assumption 3 the instanton had everything in it that composes the universe.
Assumption 4 the instanton began to expand into the universe we see today.

Now can you give me any evidence to support those 4 assumptions?

Where would those exist? Why would imaginary time exist in the vertical direction?
Where would the vacuum come from in the imaginary time for the instanton to exist so it could pop into existence?

Talk about being dishonest.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2531 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2020 2:10 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2534 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2020 4:07 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2541 of 2747 (880944)
08-15-2020 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2526 by Tangle
08-13-2020 6:47 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

his work demonstrated to him that a creator is not necessary.

Didn't he say that he had proved (with his instanton) that there was no need for a God.

You can't create something without a creator. Why do you think Hawking came up with his instanton? Why do you think someone came up with string theory? Why did someone come up with the idea that 2 branes banged together and started the universe? Why did someone propose the bounce theory where one universe collapse's and another forms from it?

Everyone is trying to get away from a creator.

Problem is anyone who does not believe the universe is eternal in existence believes in creation by some method. Even You.

Tangle writes:

ICANT wants to claim Hawking for his side

No he did not believe in God but he believed in a creator. Which he called an instanton.

Do you believe the universe is eternal in existence? That defies the two laws of thermodynamics.

Did the universe have a beginning to exist? That requires a creator.

Tangle writes:

Hawking was not on your or ICANT's side of this discussion, to say otherwise is to lie.

I have hundreds of posts where I mention Hawking and I never once said he believed in God. I wish he had for his sake.

I have said he believed in a creator.

If he did not believe in a creator why did he invent the instanton and imaginary time? The instanton according to Hawking if it could pop into existence would create a universe just like this one. Some want to play with words and say the universe was self contained, and yes that is exactly what he said about the instanton.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2526 by Tangle, posted 08-13-2020 6:47 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2545 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2020 2:38 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2542 of 2747 (880945)
08-15-2020 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2534 by Tangle
08-14-2020 4:07 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

He was an atheist. Atheists do not believe in creators.

I don't care what he was, it doesn't matter now.

What would you call the instanton that he said could create a universe just like this one if it popped into existence.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2534 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2020 4:07 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2543 of 2747 (880946)
08-15-2020 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 2536 by ringo
08-14-2020 12:10 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

Why would you assume that based on what I said?

If there was no answer you would want to me would mean you had all the answers there were.

ringo writes:

At the present time, there is no way to know anything about T=0. T=0 is not even a concept.

T=0 means exactly what is written. Time does not exist.

T=Time 0=zero time, as none exists.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2536 by ringo, posted 08-14-2020 12:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2547 by ringo, posted 08-15-2020 9:40 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2544 of 2747 (880947)
08-15-2020 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 2527 by Phat
08-13-2020 6:55 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

singularity.

Singularity does not exist as it is only a place where the math won't work.

Phat writes:

Creator of all seen and unseen is in fact human wisdom itself.

That is the reason when Hubble discovered the universe was expanding and therefore could not have existed eternally in the past. Everybody started trying to figure out in their wisdom how the universe could have begun to exist. Thus they began creating a creator. Isn't that what they claim about us inventing our God. I don't see any difference. Except there is a lot of evidence that points to God actually existing. But I find none for what has been proposed by the scientific community.

Phat writes:

You have no basis for calling a Creator of all seen and unseen a fictional character.

I would think Hawking's instanton would be a made up entity and therefore fictional. Same for two branes banging together and creating the universe. or the bounce theory. They all sound like fiction to me as there is no evidence for any of them. If there was these guys would be plastering it all over this website.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2527 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 6:55 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2552 of 2747 (880973)
08-15-2020 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2535 by DrJones*
08-14-2020 10:24 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

if you're going to try to overturn known science

If there is some empirical evidence that proves the scientific view of creation is a fact please share it.

How do you overturn something that is a fact? You don't.

How do you overturn something that is based on assumptions? Present facts that show the assumptions to be impossible.

Now as far as my math, it is getting a little rusty at 80 years old.

So let me restate my cause of confusion of what I was trying to say.

According to the Standard theory the universe existed at T=0 + a very small amount of time. Somewhere in the neighborhood of a billionth of a second.

I think I should have written T=10-43.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2535 by DrJones*, posted 08-14-2020 10:24 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2553 by DrJones*, posted 08-15-2020 2:01 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2554 of 2747 (880975)
08-15-2020 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2547 by ringo
08-15-2020 9:40 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

No.
T=0 is a position on the time line. It is not a quantity of time.

We can not "see" all the way to T=0 or beyond it.

T=0 is not a position on the time line as time does not exist at T=0, therefore there would be no timeline.

If as has been presented that time is a dimension of the universe, time could not exist prior to the universe existing.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2547 by ringo, posted 08-15-2020 9:40 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2558 by ringo, posted 08-15-2020 9:22 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2555 of 2747 (880976)
08-15-2020 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2546 by Phat
08-15-2020 7:49 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

Do you believe that at one point in the past, perhaps at ICANTS imaginary (T=0) space where the maths break down that there was NOTHING?

I don't have any imaginary (T=0) space.

Hawking did invent imaginary time that he said ran vertical to the horizontal time line scientists like to talk about.

I will try to find Hawking's lecture where he made that statement. It is hard to find any of his writings as his website has been deleted. Maybe I have been quoting him too much. lol

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2546 by Phat, posted 08-15-2020 7:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 2556 of 2747 (880980)
08-15-2020 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2545 by Tangle
08-15-2020 2:38 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

He, and others, say that the universe can create itself.

So the reason for the universe existing would be that it created itself.

But it is still created requiring a creator.

I think that would be an impossibility. But maybe you could explain it to me.

For the universe to create itself would require that it exist prior to creating itself. That would make it existing eternally in the past. Which the laws of thermodynamics says would be impossible.

If the universe was eternal in existence, why did it wait so long to create the universe we see today? Better yet, what caused it to begin to expand?

Tangle writes:

Scientists are trying to understand how the universe works.

I thought the BBT explained how it worked. Leaving the how it started and why to be pursued.

Tangle writes:

No they don't. And additionally, you are conflating creation, with 'The Creation'.

Creation is creation. I just started 'the creation' of this post a few minutes go.

I created multiple hundreds of sets of kitchen and bath room cabinets. I created many miles of roadway and many large interchanges. I created several houses.
What is the difference of any of those events? My dad did the same as well as many of my friends.

Now is there another kind of creation? I thought creation was the bringing into existence something that not exist before the creation. But we all had to have material to create out of.

Tangle writes:

This is how you guys operate. You deliberately twist scientific findings so that your hangers on get the wrong message. It's dishonest.

What am I twisting?

Creator: An entity that creates an entity that did not exist.
If God created the universe then he is the creator.
If Hawking's instanton created the universe then the instanton is the creator.
If 2 branes created the universe, then the branes are the creator.
It makes no difference what creates the universe would have a creator.

The only way around that is for the universe to have existed eternally. Which is impossible according to the laws of thermodynamics.

Tangle writes:

He did not believe in 'a creator'. 'A creator' is not 'The Creator'. You are simply obfuscating, implying things that he does not believe.

Sure he believed in a creator as he created one, his instanton.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2545 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2020 2:38 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2557 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2020 5:04 PM ICANT has responded

  
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