Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 87 (8929 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-25-2019 11:33 AM
31 online now:
AZPaul3, JonF, Tangle, vimesey (4 members, 27 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jedothek
Post Volume:
Total: 860,394 Year: 15,430/19,786 Month: 2,153/3,058 Week: 11/516 Day: 11/31 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
vimesey
Member
Posts: 973
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 761 of 2138 (855850)
06-24-2019 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by Hyroglyphx
06-23-2019 9:17 PM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
I'm guessing that with Dredge being from Australia, he is referring to the Racial Discrimination Act over there (and a number of other laws which prescribe racially hateful speech).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/.../Hate_speech_laws_in_Australia


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 757 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-23-2019 9:17 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 765 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-24-2019 9:55 AM vimesey has responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 973
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.5


(4)
Message 767 of 2138 (855866)
06-24-2019 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 765 by Hyroglyphx
06-24-2019 9:55 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
We have similar legislation in this country - a lot of other countries do too. See this page here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

I disagree that it's fascist. I certainly don't live in a fascist country and as you'll see, there's a decent amount of international consensus on the issue between a number of liberal democracies.

We take, I think, a different view to many in the US, in that we don't see rights as 100% absolute in every case - sometimes rights conflict with each other, and when that happens, we believe a pragmatic view has to be taken (by society, and through a democratic process) to limit one of the rights in conflict. In this instance, the right to free speech was seen to be creating more harm against certain groups on the receiving end of prejudice, than would be caused to people by limiting somewhat their right to free speech. So we enacted laws to that effect.

I realise that seems totally contrary to your understanding of rights, but it works for us.

I feel very free indeed in the UK. That feeling isn't diminished by knowing that I'll get into trouble if I behave in such a way that we have collectively agreed would hurt a bunch of people too much.

Freedom within our society includes the freedom to be a twat, but not where you are being such a twat that we have collectively decided that you would harm others by behaving that way. Fair enough for me.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 765 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-24-2019 9:55 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 770 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2019 11:44 AM vimesey has not yet responded
 Message 785 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-25-2019 2:34 AM vimesey has responded
 Message 799 by Dredge, posted 06-25-2019 10:53 PM vimesey has not yet responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 973
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.5


(2)
Message 789 of 2138 (855971)
06-25-2019 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 785 by Hyroglyphx
06-25-2019 2:34 AM


Re: Topic Summary According to Thugzy
We're probably veering off topic with this one, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things.

First off, speaking for myself and my experience of British society, I agree that it pays to be very careful in relation to freedom of speech - and indeed we are. In UK law, the requirements for hate speech laws to be breached are significant. It's not about causing offence - you have to both (a) use threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour towards a protected class - eg a racial group; and also (b) you intend to stir up racial hatred or cause harassment, alarm or distress to someone (to paraphrase, genuinely put them in fear). This is where we've chosen to draw the line. It's further than in the States, but the laws are pretty much only used to keep in check the far right neo Nazi organisations we have. We allow those organisations to exist, meet, talk and publish material - but if they breach the hate speech laws, we can punish that.

We have had these laws for quite a while now, and I haven't noticed any slippery slope. The line has stayed where we decided to draw it. We haven't abandoned freedom of speech, but have determined that it has a small number of limits, when we feel that the harm it could cause to protected groups is greater than the harm caused by drawing those limits.

It's not a question of abandoning freedom of speech - quite the contrary. It's that we (and a lot of other countries) have drawn a narrow line where we think freedom of speech can cause more harm than it does to limit it slightly.

My view is that life is rarely (possibly never) about absolutes. That's far too simplistic for me. It's more about balancing rights to make sure that in the 1 time in a 1000 we, as a society, feel that they cause more harm than good, we take a pragmatic view.

Your mileage may differ.

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 785 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-25-2019 2:34 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 925 by Dredge, posted 07-02-2019 12:02 AM vimesey has not yet responded

    
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019