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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 2041 of 2081 (860642)
08-09-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 2039 by ringo
08-09-2019 11:43 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:

Nope. Dark matter.

What is the reason to think we will find God behind dark matter?
From what you've offered - it is the exact same reason to think we will find "that ringo-actually-cannot-bake-cakes, he only thought he could" behind dark matter.

But - these are irrational rabbit holes.
The kind we ignore.

If you have an actual, rational reason to suggest that we could find God behind dark matter - please supply it.
What is the link between imagination and God existing behind dark matter?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2039 by ringo, posted 08-09-2019 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2043 by ringo, posted 08-09-2019 12:09 PM Stile has responded
 Message 2045 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-10-2019 10:34 AM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2042 of 2081 (860644)
08-09-2019 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 2040 by Stile
08-09-2019 11:49 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:

We have looked - scoured all our available information.


Until you look behind the dark matter, that statement is false.

Stile writes:

ringo writes:

We can not say the idea is irrational before we look.


Sure we can.

If there's no rational link from imagination to reality that gives us a reason to look - then looking is irrational.


How can you know a priori that there's no reason to look?

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2040 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 11:49 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2047 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 8:28 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2043 of 2081 (860645)
08-09-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2041 by Stile
08-09-2019 11:52 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:

What is the reason to think we will find God behind dark matter?


You have it backwards. What is the reason to think we won't?

There was no reason to think we would never find a Northwest Passage until we had explored every possibility. "We never found it in the past," was not an excuse to stop looking.


"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2041 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 11:52 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2048 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 8:35 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32659
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2044 of 2081 (860701)
08-10-2019 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1901 by Sarah Bellum
08-06-2019 5:10 PM


Re: Protestant is Evil
It's the watered-down Christianity that's willing to live and let live.

Which I guess is a way of saying they don't stand for anything, but true Christianity shouldn't try to force anything on anyone either. Maybe people get offended when given the salvation message of course.

The hard-line ones, the bible-thumpers, Christian Identity, screaming televangelists and abortion-clinic bombers are the ones you've got to worry about. Watch your back when the prayer meetings break up, and cross to the other side of the street.

I had to look up "Christian identity" because I'd never heard of it, certainly doesn't sound Christian. Most churches preach against the televangelists and try to warn people against them. There are some good ones but a lot of them "fleece the flock" for money and live hugely extravagant lives, which is certainly not Christian either. Nor is violence against abortion clinics, which is thankfully fairly rare.

By the way, you say, "you know absolutely zip about any of this." If that were true, you'd be writing reams and reams of stuff to try to get me to know where you're coming from. But you're not.

You may be right. Sorry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1901 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-06-2019 5:10 PM Sarah Bellum has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2045 of 2081 (860707)
08-10-2019 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2041 by Stile
08-09-2019 11:52 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
stile writes:

What is the link between imagination and God existing behind dark matter?

Perhaps that God is more likely to exist if you imagine that He will be actually useful and necessary in your life should you find Him. You have already admitted that you believe He is unnecessary but that you would be "open to evidence." I think you have already made your conclusion and use this whole argument as a logical justification for you not needing Him in the first place.

Add By Edit: I suppose that this is true for me as well. If jars idea of God was the reality rather than my own idea, I likely would prefer that such a God never be found nor that such a God actually be the real One.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : upon reflection


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2041 by Stile, posted 08-09-2019 11:52 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2049 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 8:46 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12678
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2046 of 2081 (860721)
08-10-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1901 by Sarah Bellum
08-06-2019 5:10 PM


Re: Protestant is Evil
SB writes:

It's the watered-down Christianity that's willing to live and let live.

This makes me think. If Jesus (as we understand Him) took The Authoritarians Quiz that was designed to measure such stuff, how authoritarian would He be? Likely not the same as todays Right Wing Christians. Jesus is portrayed as being uncompromising toward hypocrisy and legalism, but He also will not tolerate sin. The question may then become what we define sin as now versus what sin was defined as then. I suspect that it has not changed much, but then again, critics will say that this whole idea of authority under Gods supposed rules is negotiable...(since they believe that humans made up the whole God thing anyway! )

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1901 by Sarah Bellum, posted 08-06-2019 5:10 PM Sarah Bellum has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 2047 of 2081 (860799)
08-12-2019 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 2042 by ringo
08-09-2019 12:06 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:

Stile writes:

We have looked - scoured all our available information.

Until you look behind the dark matter, that statement is false.

Sure it is:

1. "Looking behind dark matter" isn't currently available to us yet.
2. There's no rational reason to suggest that God will be found behind dark matter.

How can you know a priori that there's no reason to look?

When there's no reason.
Please, if you have one - just provide it.
All it has to do is have a rational link from the imagination of God to the possible reality of God.

Without that - all we're left with is irrational imaginary ideas with no connection to reality.
Obviously, it's rational to ignore such things when concerned about what we can rationally know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2042 by ringo, posted 08-09-2019 12:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2050 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 11:47 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 2048 of 2081 (860801)
08-12-2019 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 2043 by ringo
08-09-2019 12:09 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:

Stile writes:

What is the reason to think we will find God behind dark matter?

You have it backwards. What is the reason to think we won't?

No. You have it backwards.
We're not talking about irrational no-connection-to-reality possibilities.
We're talking about our rational knowledge.

The rational reasons to think we won't find God behind dark matter are:

1. There are only irrational reasons, with no connection to reality, to think that God could exist behind dark matter.
2. Every time in the past - when there have only been irrational reasons to think God could exist somewhere - and we end up being able to check that place - no evidence for God is ever found. For thousands of years.
3. There is no evidence to suggest that God even exists in the first place at all let alone "only behind dark matter."

There was no reason to think we would never find a Northwest Passage until we had explored every possibility. "We never found it in the past," was not an excuse to stop looking.

Of course there was.
The NWP is a water-throughway.
Before we found the NWP - we had found other water-throughways.
We knew that water-throughways exist.
Therefore - it's possible to find another one in a place we haven't searched yet.

There was a link to reality that suggested the NWP could exist (because we knew water-throughways can exist.)
What is the link to reality that suggests that God could exist?

At least one water-throughway exists.
How many Gods do we know of existing?

This, again, is the difference you seem unable to deal with.
It doesn't go away.

Edited by Stile, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2043 by ringo, posted 08-09-2019 12:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2051 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 11:50 AM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 2049 of 2081 (860803)
08-12-2019 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 2045 by Thugpreacha
08-10-2019 10:34 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Thugpreacha writes:

Perhaps that God is more likely to exist if you imagine that He will be actually useful and necessary in your life should you find Him.

I do imagine such a thing.
It's very easy to imagine.
Who wouldn't want an all-powerful, all-caring being supporting them throughout their life?
The idea sounds fantastic!
I imagine it all the time.

You have already admitted that you believe He is unnecessary but that you would be "open to evidence."

According to the evidence we have available to us - yes.
According to my imagination - not at all.

I think you have already made your conclusion and use this whole argument as a logical justification for you not needing Him in the first place.

Well - you're wrong.
I think you're desperately looking for "a reason" while Stile-is-wrong about something so you can feel better about believing in God yourself.
Personally - I think that's a terrible reason to require in order to believe in God. It shows how weak your faith is.

But - what you think, or what I think - doesn't really matter, does it?

What matters is what "is."

And I'm the only one who knows my thoughts and my feelings.
And you're the only one who knows your thoughts and your feelings.

I'll allow you to be highest-authority on what Thugpreacha thinks, if you allow me to be the highest-authority on what Stile thinks.
But if you refuse to accept that and make your own uninformed ideas up about what Stile thinks.
Then you can't be surprised when I make up my own uninformed ideas up about what Thugpreacha thinks.

I suppose that this is true for me as well. If jars idea of God was the reality rather than my own idea, I likely would prefer that such a God never be found nor that such a God actually be the real One.

Are you interested in "what makes Thugpreacha feel better?" or "what is true about reality?"
One is not "more important" than the other.
It's also quite possible to be interested in both.

Of course - imagination and subjective ideas are incredibly helpful to one, but not the other.
And objective, rational information is incredibly helpful to one as well, but not a requirement of the other.

I find it's a lot easier to keep their ideas separated - as they are separate ideas.
Confusing the two leads to conflicts with reality - which are hard to overcome when wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2045 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-10-2019 10:34 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2050 of 2081 (860822)
08-12-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2047 by Stile
08-12-2019 8:28 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:

ringo writes:

How can you know a priori that there's no reason to look?


When there's no reason.
Please, if you have one - just provide it.

I have: because you can't find anything if you don't look.

Stile writes:

All it has to do is have a rational link from the imagination of God to the possible reality of God.


How do you know there is no link unless you look for one?

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2047 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 8:28 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2052 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:00 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2051 of 2081 (860823)
08-12-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2048 by Stile
08-12-2019 8:35 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:

There are only irrational reasons, with no connection to reality, to think that God could exist behind dark matter.


That's irrational. We can't know unless we look.

Stile writes:

Every time in the past - when there have only been irrational reasons to think God could exist somewhere - and we end up being able to check that place - no evidence for God is ever found. For thousands of years.


Northwest Passage.

Stile writes:

There is no evidence to suggest that God even exists in the first place at all let alone "only behind dark matter."


There's never any evidence until we look.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2048 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 8:35 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2053 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 2052 of 2081 (860825)
08-12-2019 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2050 by ringo
08-12-2019 11:47 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:

I have: because you can't find anything if you don't look.

Oh - so you can't bake cakes, either?
Because we can't find out if you're-actually-baking-cakes-or-not if don't look behind dark matter. Maybe behind dark matter we find out that ringo actually can't bake cakes - and only thinks he can right now.

Sorry - this is not a rational reason to consider that God may exist behind dark matter.
Just as it's not a rational reason to consider that ringo can't bake cakes.

Because it excludes the context that our knowledge is tentative and based on our currently available information.

How do you know there is no link unless you look for one?

We have looked everywhere within our currently available information.
If you'd like to suggest a rational reason that God may exist elsewhere - please provide it.

Otherwise, you're being irrational and you can't even know that you can bake a cake.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2050 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2054 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 12:09 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3763
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 2053 of 2081 (860826)
08-12-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2051 by ringo
08-12-2019 11:50 AM


Re: No evidence = irrational
ringo writes:

Northwest Passage.

Exactly.
Water-throughways exist - we knew this before searching for the NWP.
What sort of Gods do we know to exist before searching for God behind dark matter?

There's never any evidence until we look.

Exactly.
And, without a rational suggestion that evidence can be found somewhere... we're left with irrational, imaginary ideas that are not linked to reality.
It's irrational to think that imaginary-ideas-not-linked-to-reality should affect our knowledge of what we know to exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2051 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2055 by ringo, posted 08-12-2019 12:10 PM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2054 of 2081 (860828)
08-12-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2052 by Stile
08-12-2019 12:00 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:

Because we can't find out if you're-actually-baking-cakes-or-not if don't look behind dark matter.


Don't be silly. We don't need to look behind the dark matter for what we've already found.

Stile writes:

We have looked everywhere within our currently available information.


No, we know that a place exists, behind the dark matter, where we currently have no ability to look. Just like they had no ability to cross the ice barriers to look for the Northwest Passage.

As long as we know there is a place where we haven't looked, we can not claim to know what we'd find if we could look.


"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2052 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:00 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2056 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:16 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2055 of 2081 (860829)
08-12-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2053 by Stile
08-12-2019 12:02 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Stile writes:

What sort of Gods do we know to exist before searching for God behind dark matter?


We don't have to know that something exists before we look for it.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2053 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:02 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2057 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 12:17 PM ringo has responded

  
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